6 ms·

This is precisely the problem. Plus, even assuming there existed lots of people to fill the gap, why would they sign up for manufacturing jobs? They pay like c

This is precisely the problem. Plus, even assuming there existed lots of people to fill the gap, why would they sign up for manufacturing jobs? They pay like crap. Unions and worker rights have been gradually chipped away at for years and now they're straight up chainsawing them. Why work a monotonous job that pays at or just slightly above minimum wage, has skills that aren't really transferable should you decide to change careers, is rough on the body and doesn't even provide proper health care or sick days to rest, and employers will call you in during natural disasters with the threat of firing you otherwise and then leave you to literally die while pretending it's not their fault when you do die? [1] It's companies and the government saying, "We want everything, and in exchange, we'll give you nothing. And you will be happy." No American sees their kid growing up and thinks, "I hope my child will one day work long hours at a factory." People in some countries do, and it's because those jobs are a step up from the current standard. Factory jobs in the US are, in many cases, a step down and that step keeps lowering. High tech/high skilled manufacturing can be an exception, but the bulk of the jobs they're hoping to bring back aren't that. [1] https://www.npr.org/2024/11/02/g-s1-28731/hurricane-helene-tennessee-plastics-factory-deaths-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/2024/11/02/g-s1-28731/hurricane-helene-t...

palmotea 2y ago
> Plus, even assuming there existed lots of people to fill the gap, why would they sign up for manufacturing jobs? They pay like crap. Maybe that's just you talking from a position of relative privilege (e.g. as someone who's likely an extremely well-paid software engineer or some adjacent profession), and not really understanding other people's situation. Not everyone has a pick of the perfect career that ticks every box. It's very well document that there are lots people bitter those manufacturing jobs got off-shored, and lots of communities that wish they'd reopen "the plant."
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  I'm from a very poor Appalachian town. My only option to better my life was to get up and leave. People from my hometown do talk about the good old days. People worked at union factories and my grandfather worked a well paying railroad job. My no-name town of 1000 people had a train station that made it possible to go to NYC. My grandpa got paid a handsome retirement from the railroad company. When he died, my grandmother was able to receive his benefits. My hometown votes against building railways. The station has long crumbled. They vote against unions. The factories are long gone. They've voted against any sort of retirement benefits. The elderly are struggling and depending on churches handing out food. Even if those factories come back, they'll be paid less than my ancestors did. They'll never have an affordable link to cities hours away. They'll never get the retirement benefits my ancestors had. And if you mention giving them these benefits, they yell and say they don't want them. The youth in my hometown who worked hard in school (we somehow had a decent school, all things considered) used their education as a ticket out. Now the people there are pissed and they're coming for education next. These people don't want "the plant." They want to be young again, without understanding that their youth was great because my ancestors busted their asses to give us great opportunities. They squandered everything that was given to us.
  - abnercoimbre 2y ago
    Since you grew up there, what was their rationale for repudiating pro-labor policies at the ballot box?
    - forgotoldacc 2y ago
      The guys on TV told them the people who supported it were communist and unions are for lazy people and welfare queens. They were told by the people on TV that if they vote against this, then those people will have worse and they'll have it better. 45 minutes down the road was a town with a large black population. When people talked about "those people in (town name)" being lazy or "those people" getting jobs or "those welfare queens" somehow benefiting from anything, everybody knew what they were talking about. It was better to be racist instead of caring about the future of their children Now, decades later, it's still the same. "Welfare queen" isn't the word that's used much anymore--everyone knows it's used as a substitute for various racial slurs and it's hard to deny it. Instead, they complain about DEI and woke. They replaced the word, but the meaning is the same. They still deny that it's meant to refer to "those people", but they always mention "that" town name when talking about it.
      - sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
        "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - Lyndon B. Johnson
  - nthingtohide 2y ago
    This is very telling. The American Empire didn't even work for Americans. Who really benefitted? Just the Elites? Why should common people care about propping up an empire if the people in power don't bother about them. For context, read this thread. https://x.com/yishan/status/1906592890845028405 https://x.com/yishan/status/1906592890845028405
    - 2y ago
- Qworg 2y ago
  It isn't just "reopen the plant" - it is "reopen the plant and match economic conditions in the time period from the 1950s-1990s". Just reopening won't bring back the comparably high wages from that time period.
  - palmotea 2y ago
    > Just reopening won't bring back the comparably high wages from that time period. It's a start though. If the plant stays closed, those "comparably high wages" certainly aren't coming back. If the plant opens, there's a chance. There's a lot of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" protecting a shitty status quo: "don't do that because it doesn't fix X," implicitly requires that one solution fix everything perfectly all at once.
    - sn9 2y ago
      That's a helluva defense of nuking our trade relationships and sparking a trade war. Like it wasn't perfect but it sure was preferable to what's about to come. We could have kept that and implemented policies that were far less painful and far more likely to increase wages.
      - palmotea 2y ago
        > We could have kept that and implemented policies that were far less painful and far more likely to increase wages. Yeah, but we didn't, so this is what we get. That's why, ultimately, I blame Democrats for Trump. They had many opportunities to improve things, but they chose to ignore the trouble and prioritize other stuff more amiable to their increasingly upper-class base. The root cause was their neglect of the building pressure, Trump is just the explosion. They keep claiming they're the competent and responsible ones, but they are just irresponsible in a different, more subtle way.
        h2zizzle 2y ago
        You'll find many leftists that agree. The flubbing of so many social issues while moving with the exactitude of a striking cobra to maintain their stock-trading rights, disrupt upstart progressive campaigns, and shield financial markets from the concequences of their own actions, has lead many to recognize that we might be getting KSed. They walk the walk, yeah, just a different one from what you figured just a moment ago. Duckstep? No, the other fowl play.
- jillyboel 2y ago
  [flagged]
- hackable_sand 2y ago
  I worked in a factory. I agree with gp. Don't you dare speak for me.
charlie90 2y ago
>They pay like crap. Then raise the wages. Yes that means products get more expensive, but so be it. The economy will find a new equilibrium. White collar workers will see their purchasing power decrease, but factory workers will see it increase. >No American sees their kid growing up and thinks, "I hope my child will one day work long hours at a factory." Maybe its just me, but I think theres something seriously wrong with society if people have existential dread over the thought of having to produce the things they consume. If the production of it is so unethical, it shouldn't be consumed at all.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  > Then raise the wages. The same people proposing bringing back all these factories also want to lower wages. The dread isn't over production. It's about the conditions they face while producing them. Americans dream about having a small farm and doing their own woodworking and blacksmithing or doing so with a small community. They don't dream about working on a factory line and being fired if they miss a day due to being sick. But at the same time, if someone else says they don't want this, they call them lazy and say the kids don't want to work these days. It's an odd paradox. And high skilled manufacturing still exists in America. That work is often paid decently and people are fine with working those jobs. The problem is tariffs being made to bring back low skilled manufacturing, and the desire to make the standards of employment lower in the US so that it's feasible.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    > Americans dream about having a small farm and doing their own woodworking and blacksmithing or doing so with a small community. They don't dream about working on a factory line and being fired if they miss a day due to being sick. They dream about being treated better than that, but this is a big cultural gap. There are a lot of Americans who do, genuinely, dream about working somewhat hard factory jobs. They feel proud and fulfilled that they work in the steel mill just like their dad and grandpa and great-grandpappy, and they want to make sure their son will have the same opportunity.
arkh 2y ago
> rough on the body and doesn't even provide proper health care or sick days to rest That's why I'm bullish on human shaped drones controlled with full-body trackers. If you could do most physical jobs without being physically near the area you'd open them to more women (so widening the potential workforce) and improve on-the-job accidents statistics.
- mdda 2y ago
  and (of course) the company will record the data so that the robots will be able to learn via imitation learning ASAP
selimthegrim 2y ago
Wow I guess that WEF quote was true but just within boundaries of USA.
cmrdporcupine 2y ago
> Why work a monotonous job that pays at or just slightly above minimum wage, If you torpedo the economy so people have no other sources of income, raise the price of all goods, and cut of all social supports and programs, people will have no choice but to take jobs they would have turned their noises up at before. Draining the swamp is winning!
- e40 2y ago
  This. It’s the primary feature of the long term plan.

palmotea 2y ago

> Plus, even assuming there existed lots of people to fill the gap, why would they sign up for manufacturing jobs? They pay like crap. Maybe that's just you talking from a position of relative privilege (e.g. as someone who's likely an extremely well-paid software engineer or some adjacent profession), and not really understanding other people's situation. Not everyone has a pick of the perfect career that ticks every box. It's very well document that there are lots people bitter those manufacturing jobs got off-shored, and lots of communities that wish they'd reopen "the plant."

forgotoldacc 2y ago
I'm from a very poor Appalachian town. My only option to better my life was to get up and leave. People from my hometown do talk about the good old days. People worked at union factories and my grandfather worked a well paying railroad job. My no-name town of 1000 people had a train station that made it possible to go to NYC. My grandpa got paid a handsome retirement from the railroad company. When he died, my grandmother was able to receive his benefits. My hometown votes against building railways. The station has long crumbled. They vote against unions. The factories are long gone. They've voted against any sort of retirement benefits. The elderly are struggling and depending on churches handing out food. Even if those factories come back, they'll be paid less than my ancestors did. They'll never have an affordable link to cities hours away. They'll never get the retirement benefits my ancestors had. And if you mention giving them these benefits, they yell and say they don't want them. The youth in my hometown who worked hard in school (we somehow had a decent school, all things considered) used their education as a ticket out. Now the people there are pissed and they're coming for education next. These people don't want "the plant." They want to be young again, without understanding that their youth was great because my ancestors busted their asses to give us great opportunities. They squandered everything that was given to us.
- abnercoimbre 2y ago
  Since you grew up there, what was their rationale for repudiating pro-labor policies at the ballot box?
  - forgotoldacc 2y ago
    The guys on TV told them the people who supported it were communist and unions are for lazy people and welfare queens. They were told by the people on TV that if they vote against this, then those people will have worse and they'll have it better. 45 minutes down the road was a town with a large black population. When people talked about "those people in (town name)" being lazy or "those people" getting jobs or "those welfare queens" somehow benefiting from anything, everybody knew what they were talking about. It was better to be racist instead of caring about the future of their children Now, decades later, it's still the same. "Welfare queen" isn't the word that's used much anymore--everyone knows it's used as a substitute for various racial slurs and it's hard to deny it. Instead, they complain about DEI and woke. They replaced the word, but the meaning is the same. They still deny that it's meant to refer to "those people", but they always mention "that" town name when talking about it.
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
      "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - Lyndon B. Johnson
- nthingtohide 2y ago
  This is very telling. The American Empire didn't even work for Americans. Who really benefitted? Just the Elites? Why should common people care about propping up an empire if the people in power don't bother about them. For context, read this thread. https://x.com/yishan/status/1906592890845028405 https://x.com/yishan/status/1906592890845028405
  - 2y ago
Qworg 2y ago
It isn't just "reopen the plant" - it is "reopen the plant and match economic conditions in the time period from the 1950s-1990s". Just reopening won't bring back the comparably high wages from that time period.
- palmotea 2y ago
  > Just reopening won't bring back the comparably high wages from that time period. It's a start though. If the plant stays closed, those "comparably high wages" certainly aren't coming back. If the plant opens, there's a chance. There's a lot of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" protecting a shitty status quo: "don't do that because it doesn't fix X," implicitly requires that one solution fix everything perfectly all at once.
  - sn9 2y ago
    That's a helluva defense of nuking our trade relationships and sparking a trade war. Like it wasn't perfect but it sure was preferable to what's about to come. We could have kept that and implemented policies that were far less painful and far more likely to increase wages.
    - palmotea 2y ago
      > We could have kept that and implemented policies that were far less painful and far more likely to increase wages. Yeah, but we didn't, so this is what we get. That's why, ultimately, I blame Democrats for Trump. They had many opportunities to improve things, but they chose to ignore the trouble and prioritize other stuff more amiable to their increasingly upper-class base. The root cause was their neglect of the building pressure, Trump is just the explosion. They keep claiming they're the competent and responsible ones, but they are just irresponsible in a different, more subtle way.
      - h2zizzle 2y ago
        You'll find many leftists that agree. The flubbing of so many social issues while moving with the exactitude of a striking cobra to maintain their stock-trading rights, disrupt upstart progressive campaigns, and shield financial markets from the concequences of their own actions, has lead many to recognize that we might be getting KSed. They walk the walk, yeah, just a different one from what you figured just a moment ago. Duckstep? No, the other fowl play.
jillyboel 2y ago
[flagged]
hackable_sand 2y ago
I worked in a factory. I agree with gp. Don't you dare speak for me.

charlie90 2y ago

>They pay like crap. Then raise the wages. Yes that means products get more expensive, but so be it. The economy will find a new equilibrium. White collar workers will see their purchasing power decrease, but factory workers will see it increase. >No American sees their kid growing up and thinks, "I hope my child will one day work long hours at a factory." Maybe its just me, but I think theres something seriously wrong with society if people have existential dread over the thought of having to produce the things they consume. If the production of it is so unethical, it shouldn't be consumed at all.

forgotoldacc 2y ago
> Then raise the wages. The same people proposing bringing back all these factories also want to lower wages. The dread isn't over production. It's about the conditions they face while producing them. Americans dream about having a small farm and doing their own woodworking and blacksmithing or doing so with a small community. They don't dream about working on a factory line and being fired if they miss a day due to being sick. But at the same time, if someone else says they don't want this, they call them lazy and say the kids don't want to work these days. It's an odd paradox. And high skilled manufacturing still exists in America. That work is often paid decently and people are fine with working those jobs. The problem is tariffs being made to bring back low skilled manufacturing, and the desire to make the standards of employment lower in the US so that it's feasible.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  > Americans dream about having a small farm and doing their own woodworking and blacksmithing or doing so with a small community. They don't dream about working on a factory line and being fired if they miss a day due to being sick. They dream about being treated better than that, but this is a big cultural gap. There are a lot of Americans who do, genuinely, dream about working somewhat hard factory jobs. They feel proud and fulfilled that they work in the steel mill just like their dad and grandpa and great-grandpappy, and they want to make sure their son will have the same opportunity.

arkh 2y ago

> rough on the body and doesn't even provide proper health care or sick days to rest That's why I'm bullish on human shaped drones controlled with full-body trackers. If you could do most physical jobs without being physically near the area you'd open them to more women (so widening the potential workforce) and improve on-the-job accidents statistics.

mdda 2y ago
and (of course) the company will record the data so that the robots will be able to learn via imitation learning ASAP

selimthegrim 2y ago

Wow I guess that WEF quote was true but just within boundaries of USA.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago

> Why work a monotonous job that pays at or just slightly above minimum wage, If you torpedo the economy so people have no other sources of income, raise the price of all goods, and cut of all social supports and programs, people will have no choice but to take jobs they would have turned their noises up at before. Draining the swamp is winning!

e40 2y ago
This. It’s the primary feature of the long term plan.