5 ms·

Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the

Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major issue for me. It’s difficult to justify for the price, plus PCBs and repeated flex stress don’t mix nicely. I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.

mikae1 2y ago
As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint). [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
- roywashere 2y ago
  Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
  - 0xEF 2y ago
    Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the masses.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Which is why we're sadly only really going to get it if a major manufacturer decides to go Framework on us, because otherwise the economies of scale just aren't there. Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
    - jabl 2y ago
      Also, a Cortex A76 isn't exactly a speed demon, even compared to some used x86 laptop saved from the recycling bin. The Cortex A53 on the original MNT Reform is even worse. Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough.
      - ryukafalz 2y ago
        > Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough. I use one as my main laptop outside work and that's pretty much how I feel about it, yeah. 32 GB of RAM is nice too :)
- pmontra 2y ago
  If it were at least 14" instead of 12.5".
- numpad0 2y ago
  Every time I see any of those MNT machines in pictures, it makes my fingers start frantically typing out lengthy rants whether it's about internals or externals or even choices of colors.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    Yeah I respect the project and mission but it’s not for me for various reasons.
- srik 2y ago
  MNT reforms get more and more appealing by the day as I’ve become increasingly disillusioned by the state of current hardware offerings.
makeitdouble 2y ago
At least the M1~2 series Macbooks scratched the screen with the keyboard. Mines did, and asking second hand resailers it was a very common issue. Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
- mgraupner 2y ago
  Using a thin microfibre cloth between keyboard and screen prevents this.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Setting a microfibre cloth every time the laptop is bagged is much of a PITA to be honest. The lazier solution is a screen protector, albeit screen viewing angle or reflection come into consideration. Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop with a touch screen was the best option: screens are tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
  - hkt 2y ago
    Classic apple apologia: hey user who spent ££££, you're doing it wrong! Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal during calls.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Only if Apple provides a stream of clean microfibre cloths and someone to lay it out for me and close the laptop with care. Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again. (Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was delivered in, probably the opposite.)
  - gabrielhidasy 2y ago
    Requiring special care for a common usage, that's a hallmark of bad design.
- 2y ago
adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature. charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop killers, so making that modular is a huge step up
- albertgoeswoof 2y ago
  Not really these days, most laptops have 2-4 usb c ports that you can change through so you have redundancy if one fails
- squiggleblaz 2y ago
  The modular ports are just USB-C in a cutaway. You can plug your charger into the USB-C port, or into a USB-C module that plugs into the USB-C port. Totally underwhelming. (I had a Framework 16 as a work machine at a previous job.) I definitely still make use of USB-A, and I will for some time - but only when I'm at home plugging in my keyboard and mouse, so I could be perfectly happy with a USB-C hub like I use with my current laptop. I want a durable computer which I can upgrade the RAM, motherboard, storage, replace the battery, screen etc over the next seventeen years so that I don't know when one computer begins and the next ends. I don't want impractical USB-C ports that I have to pay extra for and which limit the durability of the system. To be clear: I've never had a laptop whose charging port died, but if it was something I'd rate as likely, I'd would much rather have a good system and replace the bottom cover kit, rather than a compromised system and replace a protective plug.
  - mistercheph 2y ago
    I’m not sure what you lose by the expansion bay port being an actual standard port rather than something proprietary I’m assuming is what you would prefer? There is a grip system where the expansion ports lock in, and the ports aren’t just hanging by the USB-c male, I have not heard of instances where the inner port fails. In fact, it’s pretty convenient and has come in handy for me that in a pinch you can remove the expansion modules and have extra usb-c ports.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Modular ports are good, but I’m not sure I need to be able to hot swap them. Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.
noisy_boy 2y ago
My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably durable config. Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
- bkor 2y ago
  > My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
  - noisy_boy 2y ago
    It always had aggressive fans but yes I do plan to open it up for cleanup (I do clean the fan grills with a soft brush regularly).
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  I was sad when I bought a new 10th or 11th gen X1 carbon to replace my 4th gen. I configured them essentially the same, second-to-fastest processor, FHD display, no touch screen. The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
  - winrid 2y ago
    My 6th gen carbon almost never gets hot as well. Maybe the gen you have has a CPU with a higher TDP? They got better again recently.
    - MSFT_Edging 2y ago
      I can't keep the gens straight because I bought a late-model right after a new gen was released. It's definitely not the 9th because lenovo basically said "don't buy this", and it's the model before they added the awful external camera bump for a webcam I'd use 2x a year. Ironically, battery life while actively using it is decent, not as good as the 4th gen, but I could squeeze 8 hours out of it. I use whatever cpu throttling utility that lives under the default KDE power controls. I trust it works because compilation times are quartered when you go from power saving to high performance. Most of my complaints revolve around the fact I can't enable legacy sleep modes that actually save power. I blame microsoft for pushing their new sleep modes that mostly benefits windows.
umbra07 2y ago
Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since their initial post.
- Malcolmlisk 2y ago
  As a 13 owner (only thinkpad 13, nobody talks about it but I think is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever owned) this would be fantastic. I would love to have my 13 for life. I don't know if my 13 is able to be upgraded like a desktop PC like other thinkpads, but adding a carbon fiber chassis would be like fresh air.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Thermal conductivity?
  - umbra07 2y ago
    My comment was referencing the Framework 13, not the ThinkPad :)
ohgr 2y ago
They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with them. Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.
pmontra 2y ago
My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all. The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium. So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.
- bluGill 2y ago
  I suspect you could get a local machinist to make you a metal base, then find mechanical key switches and the other parts and thus make a new replacement keyboard to your specs. Keyboards are not very complex so some effort can get you a new one to fit.
wpm 2y ago
Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you pick the laptop up.
organsnyder 2y ago
I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13. The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel. I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).
- gibibit 2y ago
  Interestingly the Macbook trackpad does not have physical buttons. It uses haptic feedback to simulate the feeling of a "click", but in reality there is no button which could be interrupted by dust. I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation. On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  MacBooks haven’t had mechanical trackpads in over a decade now — they’re solid glass with really good haptics to make it feel like they move, so I doubt what you’re experiencing with yours is a mechanical jam. It’s more likely that the haptic motor is malfunctioning occasionally or there’s something that’s causing the process in charge of haptics to stall.
r_i_m_b_a_u_d 2y ago
[dead]

mikae1 2y ago

As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint). [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next

roywashere 2y ago
Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
- 0xEF 2y ago
  Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the masses.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Which is why we're sadly only really going to get it if a major manufacturer decides to go Framework on us, because otherwise the economies of scale just aren't there. Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
  - jabl 2y ago
    Also, a Cortex A76 isn't exactly a speed demon, even compared to some used x86 laptop saved from the recycling bin. The Cortex A53 on the original MNT Reform is even worse. Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough.
    - ryukafalz 2y ago
      > Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough. I use one as my main laptop outside work and that's pretty much how I feel about it, yeah. 32 GB of RAM is nice too :)
pmontra 2y ago
If it were at least 14" instead of 12.5".
numpad0 2y ago
Every time I see any of those MNT machines in pictures, it makes my fingers start frantically typing out lengthy rants whether it's about internals or externals or even choices of colors.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Yeah I respect the project and mission but it’s not for me for various reasons.
srik 2y ago
MNT reforms get more and more appealing by the day as I’ve become increasingly disillusioned by the state of current hardware offerings.

makeitdouble 2y ago

At least the M1~2 series Macbooks scratched the screen with the keyboard. Mines did, and asking second hand resailers it was a very common issue. Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.

mgraupner 2y ago
Using a thin microfibre cloth between keyboard and screen prevents this.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  Setting a microfibre cloth every time the laptop is bagged is much of a PITA to be honest. The lazier solution is a screen protector, albeit screen viewing angle or reflection come into consideration. Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop with a touch screen was the best option: screens are tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
- hkt 2y ago
  Classic apple apologia: hey user who spent ££££, you're doing it wrong! Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal during calls.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Only if Apple provides a stream of clean microfibre cloths and someone to lay it out for me and close the laptop with care. Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again. (Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was delivered in, probably the opposite.)
- gabrielhidasy 2y ago
  Requiring special care for a common usage, that's a hallmark of bad design.
2y ago

adgjlsfhk1 2y ago

imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature. charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop killers, so making that modular is a huge step up

albertgoeswoof 2y ago
Not really these days, most laptops have 2-4 usb c ports that you can change through so you have redundancy if one fails
squiggleblaz 2y ago
The modular ports are just USB-C in a cutaway. You can plug your charger into the USB-C port, or into a USB-C module that plugs into the USB-C port. Totally underwhelming. (I had a Framework 16 as a work machine at a previous job.) I definitely still make use of USB-A, and I will for some time - but only when I'm at home plugging in my keyboard and mouse, so I could be perfectly happy with a USB-C hub like I use with my current laptop. I want a durable computer which I can upgrade the RAM, motherboard, storage, replace the battery, screen etc over the next seventeen years so that I don't know when one computer begins and the next ends. I don't want impractical USB-C ports that I have to pay extra for and which limit the durability of the system. To be clear: I've never had a laptop whose charging port died, but if it was something I'd rate as likely, I'd would much rather have a good system and replace the bottom cover kit, rather than a compromised system and replace a protective plug.
- mistercheph 2y ago
  I’m not sure what you lose by the expansion bay port being an actual standard port rather than something proprietary I’m assuming is what you would prefer? There is a grip system where the expansion ports lock in, and the ports aren’t just hanging by the USB-c male, I have not heard of instances where the inner port fails. In fact, it’s pretty convenient and has come in handy for me that in a pinch you can remove the expansion modules and have extra usb-c ports.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Modular ports are good, but I’m not sure I need to be able to hot swap them. Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.

noisy_boy 2y ago

My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably durable config. Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.

bkor 2y ago
> My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
- noisy_boy 2y ago
  It always had aggressive fans but yes I do plan to open it up for cleanup (I do clean the fan grills with a soft brush regularly).
MSFT_Edging 2y ago
I was sad when I bought a new 10th or 11th gen X1 carbon to replace my 4th gen. I configured them essentially the same, second-to-fastest processor, FHD display, no touch screen. The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
- winrid 2y ago
  My 6th gen carbon almost never gets hot as well. Maybe the gen you have has a CPU with a higher TDP? They got better again recently.
  - MSFT_Edging 2y ago
    I can't keep the gens straight because I bought a late-model right after a new gen was released. It's definitely not the 9th because lenovo basically said "don't buy this", and it's the model before they added the awful external camera bump for a webcam I'd use 2x a year. Ironically, battery life while actively using it is decent, not as good as the 4th gen, but I could squeeze 8 hours out of it. I use whatever cpu throttling utility that lives under the default KDE power controls. I trust it works because compilation times are quartered when you go from power saving to high performance. Most of my complaints revolve around the fact I can't enable legacy sleep modes that actually save power. I blame microsoft for pushing their new sleep modes that mostly benefits windows.

umbra07 2y ago

Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since their initial post.

Malcolmlisk 2y ago
As a 13 owner (only thinkpad 13, nobody talks about it but I think is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever owned) this would be fantastic. I would love to have my 13 for life. I don't know if my 13 is able to be upgraded like a desktop PC like other thinkpads, but adding a carbon fiber chassis would be like fresh air.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Thermal conductivity?
- umbra07 2y ago
  My comment was referencing the Framework 13, not the ThinkPad :)

ohgr 2y ago

They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with them. Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.

pmontra 2y ago

My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all. The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium. So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.

bluGill 2y ago
I suspect you could get a local machinist to make you a metal base, then find mechanical key switches and the other parts and thus make a new replacement keyboard to your specs. Keyboards are not very complex so some effort can get you a new one to fit.

wpm 2y ago

Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you pick the laptop up.

organsnyder 2y ago

I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13. The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel. I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).

gibibit 2y ago
Interestingly the Macbook trackpad does not have physical buttons. It uses haptic feedback to simulate the feeling of a "click", but in reality there is no button which could be interrupted by dust. I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation. On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
MacBooks haven’t had mechanical trackpads in over a decade now — they’re solid glass with really good haptics to make it feel like they move, so I doubt what you’re experiencing with yours is a mechanical jam. It’s more likely that the haptic motor is malfunctioning occasionally or there’s something that’s causing the process in charge of haptics to stall.

r_i_m_b_a_u_d 2y ago

[dead]