5 ms·

What I don't understand is why it took you 8 weeks to distinguish a timer from a transistor. That doesn't make your professor's reaction alright, I just find it

by orlp 2y ago

What I don't understand is why it took you 8 weeks to distinguish a timer from a transistor. That doesn't make your professor's reaction alright, I just find it puzzling.

mikepurvis 2y ago
That would be like exposing a first year CS student to a situation where "it could be a compiler bug" is one of the potential explanations.
- vkou 2y ago
  It's closer to exposing a first year CS student who has never touched a computer before to Windows, when the work is supposed to be done on Linux, and the TA is hemming and hawing, and insists that the reason the sudo command isn't working is because the student is not following the steps correctly. It's a problem that's obvious to diagnose... If you already have passing familiarity with the material. Most people do not have passing familiarity with electronic components when they step into an engineering program.
- anyfoo 2y ago
  The part was marked as a timer IC.
  - kragen 2y ago
    Not just a timer IC. Literally the most common IC in the world for at least every year from 01980 to 02000 or so, maybe still today. I can understand the first-year student not recognizing it, but what the fuck was the lab tech's mental disability?
themaninthedark 2y ago
I would assume that you don't have access to the lab(and diagnostic equipment) at all times and taking other classes. Also him being a student, having the wrong component was probably not in his mental troubleshooting tree. I would guess that it was not in the lab assistant's troubleshooting tree either. Also once you start down the road of troubleshooting, a false trail can lead you far into the woods.
don-code 2y ago
It's a good question! I didn't think to check the markings on the chip. The lab tech was convinced I was doing something wrong with my setup, and likewise he had me convinced it must be something wrong with my setup. Coincidentally, I've been knee-deep in some problems that I've applied the Cynefin framework to. I'd call this problem "chaotic", where throwing things at the wall might be _more_ effective than working down a suggested or tried-and-true path from an expert. I was pleasantly surprised just a few weeks ago where one of the more junior engineers on my team suggested updating a library - something I hadn't considered at all - to fix an issue we were having. (That library has no changelog; it's proprietary / closed source with no public bug tracker.) Surely enough, they were right, and the problem went away immediately - but I was convinced this was a problem with the data (it was a sporadic type error), not a library problem.
- anyfoo 2y ago
  No offense, but... when I was reading your story, I was somehow at least assuming that the marking on the part was somewhat unreadable or something... After getting befuddling answers, would it not have been natural to check the base assumptions, starting with do I have the correct part? That is true as much in the "real engineering" world, as in school. You say "It could _never_ be the equipment's fault" as if it was, but it wasn't. The test equipment gave you correct answers, your device under test was wrong.
  - opello 2y ago
    Or even more likely in a lab setting: have another student test your part in their setup for A/B validation testing.
    - hughdbrown 2y ago
      Sort of like the first debugging tip here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42682602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42682602
      - 2y ago
Isamu 2y ago
Same package. 555 is typically a DIP-8, transistor packages are available in the same. So you would have to examine the cryptic markings and compare them with the other students, and that’s only if you suspected some fuckup on the part of the knowledgeable people.
- realo 2y ago
  ALWAYS suspect some fuckup on the part of the knowledgeable people... especially them! Trust, but verify.
  - nomel 2y ago
    Yes, my strict adherence to “trust but verify” was born from literal tears. It’s not worth trusting others if it takes a small fraction of the projects time to verify. It has saved me incredible amounts of time in my professional life, and I’ve seen months wasted, and projects delayed, by others who hadn’t cried enough yet.
    - wasabi991011 2y ago
      I would love to hear some of your examples, if only to reinforce your lesson to myself.
      - gopher_space 2y ago
        “Is the box plugged in? Did you cycle the power?” I’ll trust that you understand each of those words individually but later verify that the box is actually plugged in.
        mook 2y ago
        That's why tech support has moved on to "unplug the thing, wait a minute, then plug it back in". It gives the capacitors to discharge; but more importantly, it gives an excuse to actually force the person to plug the thing in.
arijo 2y ago
You can create a timer with one transistor and an LC feedback loop.
dudinax 2y ago
relatively cheap lesson in the importance of knowing your hardware.
dosman33 2y ago
Ohm lordy, we're blaming the student for not having years of homebrew experience before he entered school? Sure any hobbiest knows what a 555 is, but when the lab assistant doesn't even catch it and the chip was handed out to the student this is not an entry-level students fault.

by orlp 2y ago

What I don't understand is why it took you 8 weeks to distinguish a timer from a transistor. That doesn't make your professor's reaction alright, I just find it puzzling.

mikepurvis 2y ago

That would be like exposing a first year CS student to a situation where "it could be a compiler bug" is one of the potential explanations.

vkou 2y ago
It's closer to exposing a first year CS student who has never touched a computer before to Windows, when the work is supposed to be done on Linux, and the TA is hemming and hawing, and insists that the reason the sudo command isn't working is because the student is not following the steps correctly. It's a problem that's obvious to diagnose... If you already have passing familiarity with the material. Most people do not have passing familiarity with electronic components when they step into an engineering program.
anyfoo 2y ago
The part was marked as a timer IC.
- kragen 2y ago
  Not just a timer IC. Literally the most common IC in the world for at least every year from 01980 to 02000 or so, maybe still today. I can understand the first-year student not recognizing it, but what the fuck was the lab tech's mental disability?

themaninthedark 2y ago

I would assume that you don't have access to the lab(and diagnostic equipment) at all times and taking other classes. Also him being a student, having the wrong component was probably not in his mental troubleshooting tree. I would guess that it was not in the lab assistant's troubleshooting tree either. Also once you start down the road of troubleshooting, a false trail can lead you far into the woods.

don-code 2y ago

It's a good question! I didn't think to check the markings on the chip. The lab tech was convinced I was doing something wrong with my setup, and likewise he had me convinced it must be something wrong with my setup. Coincidentally, I've been knee-deep in some problems that I've applied the Cynefin framework to. I'd call this problem "chaotic", where throwing things at the wall might be _more_ effective than working down a suggested or tried-and-true path from an expert. I was pleasantly surprised just a few weeks ago where one of the more junior engineers on my team suggested updating a library - something I hadn't considered at all - to fix an issue we were having. (That library has no changelog; it's proprietary / closed source with no public bug tracker.) Surely enough, they were right, and the problem went away immediately - but I was convinced this was a problem with the data (it was a sporadic type error), not a library problem.

anyfoo 2y ago
No offense, but... when I was reading your story, I was somehow at least assuming that the marking on the part was somewhat unreadable or something... After getting befuddling answers, would it not have been natural to check the base assumptions, starting with do I have the correct part? That is true as much in the "real engineering" world, as in school. You say "It could _never_ be the equipment's fault" as if it was, but it wasn't. The test equipment gave you correct answers, your device under test was wrong.
- opello 2y ago
  Or even more likely in a lab setting: have another student test your part in their setup for A/B validation testing.
  - hughdbrown 2y ago
    Sort of like the first debugging tip here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42682602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42682602
    - 2y ago

Isamu 2y ago

Same package. 555 is typically a DIP-8, transistor packages are available in the same. So you would have to examine the cryptic markings and compare them with the other students, and that’s only if you suspected some fuckup on the part of the knowledgeable people.

realo 2y ago
ALWAYS suspect some fuckup on the part of the knowledgeable people... especially them! Trust, but verify.
- nomel 2y ago
  Yes, my strict adherence to “trust but verify” was born from literal tears. It’s not worth trusting others if it takes a small fraction of the projects time to verify. It has saved me incredible amounts of time in my professional life, and I’ve seen months wasted, and projects delayed, by others who hadn’t cried enough yet.
  - wasabi991011 2y ago
    I would love to hear some of your examples, if only to reinforce your lesson to myself.
    - gopher_space 2y ago
      “Is the box plugged in? Did you cycle the power?” I’ll trust that you understand each of those words individually but later verify that the box is actually plugged in.
      - mook 2y ago
        That's why tech support has moved on to "unplug the thing, wait a minute, then plug it back in". It gives the capacitors to discharge; but more importantly, it gives an excuse to actually force the person to plug the thing in.

arijo 2y ago

You can create a timer with one transistor and an LC feedback loop.

dudinax 2y ago

relatively cheap lesson in the importance of knowing your hardware.

dosman33 2y ago

Ohm lordy, we're blaming the student for not having years of homebrew experience before he entered school? Sure any hobbiest knows what a 555 is, but when the lab assistant doesn't even catch it and the chip was handed out to the student this is not an entry-level students fault.