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That is enraging. I've seen similar things happen too and it blows my mind how ridiculous some of these teachers can be. I don't know if it's dehumanization o

That is enraging. I've seen similar things happen too and it blows my mind how ridiculous some of these teachers can be. I don't know if it's dehumanization of their students in their minds or an utter unwillingness to devote 30 seconds of directed attention to understanding the situation and making a reasonable judgment, but whatever the cause it is prolific. The only thing worse is when one of them will add something like, "life isn't fair, get over it" when it's fully in their power to make a reasonable determination.

selimthegrim 2y ago
Just wait until that teacher is your graduate advisor.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  I hear so many horror stories in the sciences, I have no idea why anyone would pursue an academic career in it.
  - karel-3d 2y ago
    Well in the industry you have the weekly JIRA humiliation rituals, bad things are everywhere
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - concordDance 2y ago
      What's this a reference to? Not familiar with JIRA humiliation rituals.
      - MattSayar 2y ago
        Scrum/Kanban ceremonies with assigning points to tasks etc. GP is being melodramatic
        FrontierProject 2y ago
        I've been redditing for 15 years and until a week ago here on HN, I've never seen the previous commenter reffered to as GP. What is that an acronym for?
        jodrellblank 2y ago
        GrandParent Parent is the comment you're replying to, GrandParent is the comment above that, OP is the original poster.
  - yardie 2y ago
    At this point it’s the track to get a visa to work and live in the US. I’ve met so many graduate researchers who put up with way more bullshit than I would ever deal with. And why most grad programs are mostly immigrants.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  That's why you should select your PhD advisor very carefully.
int_19h 2y ago
It's a general problem with large bureaucracies. If you're a cog in the machine, the safest way is to always stick to the rules, and avoid any situation where one has to exercise discretion, since any personal judgment comes with potential personal responsibility down the line.
- gsf_emergency_2 2y ago
  It bugs me that oftentimes there appear to be nothing but cogs (e.g. Intel)
  - int_19h 2y ago
    That shouldn't be surprising at all, since that is the safest arrangement for everyone, and therefore the system will tend to approximate it closely in the long term.
- nicbou 2y ago
  I forgot where I read that large organisations are effectively accountability dilution machines. No one is fully in charge, and everyone gets to say that their hands are tied, that computer says no. This is the dark side of scale.
  - miki123211 2y ago
    THe original version of that idea seems to come from "The Unaccountability Machine: Why Big Systems Make Terrible Decisions - and How The World Lost Its Mind", by Dan Davies (the "Lying for Money" guy.) There's a shorter interview with him (in podcast form, includes a well-made transcript) going into these ideas at https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...
ethbr1 2y ago
The flip side of this is from the professor's perspective: some undergrad in every class will lie their ass off about why their assignment was delayed. Unfortunately, this reality produces no good options if you think someone is telling the truth: (1) make an exception, and be unfair to the rest of the class or (2) don't make an exception, and perpetuate unfairness for the impacted student.
- freedomben 2y ago
  That's fair, but in this case it should be pretty easy to verify if the person is lying. The claim is highly reproducible and the instructor wouldn't even have to do it.
  - ncruces 2y ago
    How? What happens when students start buying faulty hardware to justify unrelated delays?
    - sriram_malhar 2y ago
      As a teacher, my first rule is, be kind. Sure, there are people who will take advantage of the situation, but they are not really taking advantage of me. In this case, I'd have a harness that ensures the parts they were given work as advertised, and make it the students' responsibility to report within the first 3 days if it is not working.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Yes, although just having the faulty hardware isn't enough. They also have to use the tools to show that it behaves incorrectly, which is surely a lot more work than just following the book would have been. That is the part that is easily reproducible. The student already knows how, so in a few minutes he can set it up in front of the prof and show him. The prof needn't do anything other than watch for a few mins. If more of these cases crop up then you should get suspicious, but you also need to consider the impact of giving a student the wrong chip and expecting them to succeed! I think Blackstone's Ratio should apply here personally
AnthonBerg 2y ago
Aggression, Social Stress, and the Immune System – Takahashi, Flanigan, McEwen & Russo, 2018 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2018.00056/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience... “Aggression has an adaptive significance for most animal species and is critical for acquiring and protecting territory, food, reproductive mates, and offspring. In animals with hierarchical societies, aggressive behavior is thought to help individuals gain and maintain higher social status (Box 2). It has been shown that aggressive behavior, especially the experience of winning, has rewarding properties in animals and repeated aggressive experience may lead to compulsive, pathological aggression that is highly reinforcing (Fish et al., 2002; Falkner et al., 2016; Golden et al., 2016, 2017).”

selimthegrim 2y ago

Just wait until that teacher is your graduate advisor.

DiscourseFan 2y ago
I hear so many horror stories in the sciences, I have no idea why anyone would pursue an academic career in it.
- karel-3d 2y ago
  Well in the industry you have the weekly JIRA humiliation rituals, bad things are everywhere
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - concordDance 2y ago
    What's this a reference to? Not familiar with JIRA humiliation rituals.
    - MattSayar 2y ago
      Scrum/Kanban ceremonies with assigning points to tasks etc. GP is being melodramatic
      - FrontierProject 2y ago
        I've been redditing for 15 years and until a week ago here on HN, I've never seen the previous commenter reffered to as GP. What is that an acronym for?
        jodrellblank 2y ago
        GrandParent Parent is the comment you're replying to, GrandParent is the comment above that, OP is the original poster.
- yardie 2y ago
  At this point it’s the track to get a visa to work and live in the US. I’ve met so many graduate researchers who put up with way more bullshit than I would ever deal with. And why most grad programs are mostly immigrants.
aleph_minus_one 2y ago
That's why you should select your PhD advisor very carefully.

int_19h 2y ago

It's a general problem with large bureaucracies. If you're a cog in the machine, the safest way is to always stick to the rules, and avoid any situation where one has to exercise discretion, since any personal judgment comes with potential personal responsibility down the line.

gsf_emergency_2 2y ago
It bugs me that oftentimes there appear to be nothing but cogs (e.g. Intel)
- int_19h 2y ago
  That shouldn't be surprising at all, since that is the safest arrangement for everyone, and therefore the system will tend to approximate it closely in the long term.
nicbou 2y ago
I forgot where I read that large organisations are effectively accountability dilution machines. No one is fully in charge, and everyone gets to say that their hands are tied, that computer says no. This is the dark side of scale.
- miki123211 2y ago
  THe original version of that idea seems to come from "The Unaccountability Machine: Why Big Systems Make Terrible Decisions - and How The World Lost Its Mind", by Dan Davies (the "Lying for Money" guy.) There's a shorter interview with him (in podcast form, includes a well-made transcript) going into these ideas at https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...

ethbr1 2y ago

The flip side of this is from the professor's perspective: some undergrad in every class will lie their ass off about why their assignment was delayed. Unfortunately, this reality produces no good options if you think someone is telling the truth: (1) make an exception, and be unfair to the rest of the class or (2) don't make an exception, and perpetuate unfairness for the impacted student.

freedomben 2y ago
That's fair, but in this case it should be pretty easy to verify if the person is lying. The claim is highly reproducible and the instructor wouldn't even have to do it.
- ncruces 2y ago
  How? What happens when students start buying faulty hardware to justify unrelated delays?
  - sriram_malhar 2y ago
    As a teacher, my first rule is, be kind. Sure, there are people who will take advantage of the situation, but they are not really taking advantage of me. In this case, I'd have a harness that ensures the parts they were given work as advertised, and make it the students' responsibility to report within the first 3 days if it is not working.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Yes, although just having the faulty hardware isn't enough. They also have to use the tools to show that it behaves incorrectly, which is surely a lot more work than just following the book would have been. That is the part that is easily reproducible. The student already knows how, so in a few minutes he can set it up in front of the prof and show him. The prof needn't do anything other than watch for a few mins. If more of these cases crop up then you should get suspicious, but you also need to consider the impact of giving a student the wrong chip and expecting them to succeed! I think Blackstone's Ratio should apply here personally

AnthonBerg 2y ago

Aggression, Social Stress, and the Immune System – Takahashi, Flanigan, McEwen & Russo, 2018 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2018.00056/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience... “Aggression has an adaptive significance for most animal species and is critical for acquiring and protecting territory, food, reproductive mates, and offspring. In animals with hierarchical societies, aggressive behavior is thought to help individuals gain and maintain higher social status (Box 2). It has been shown that aggressive behavior, especially the experience of winning, has rewarding properties in animals and repeated aggressive experience may lead to compulsive, pathological aggression that is highly reinforcing (Fish et al., 2002; Falkner et al., 2016; Golden et al., 2016, 2017).”