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From what I understand, the judge ruled that it wasn't defamation for Jobst to call Mitchell a cheater but saying he drove Apollo Legend to suicide was too far

From what I understand, the judge ruled that it wasn't defamation for Jobst to call Mitchell a cheater but saying he drove Apollo Legend to suicide was too far considering he didn't have a lot of reason to believe this: it was mostly based on online rumors about an apparent out of court financial settlement between Apollo and Mitchell which never existed. What probably drove the nail in the coffin is that Jobst did edit the video later to remove the claim, but after Mitchell sent legal action, he republished the original video. This might have felt vindictive to the judge. Now, Jobst did eventually ask Apollo's family for the facts, remove the claim and publish a retraction about a month later, but perhaps the judge thought this was too little too late. I don't agree that Mitchell's reputation was harmed as he brought attention to the video multiple times, but it's hard to argue against the facts: Jobst said something he wasn't sure was true, and when he learned it was false he kept it up anyway. Edit: fixed timeline, which is documented here: https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/20/karl-day-4/ https://perfectpacman.com/2024/09/20/karl-day-4/

Suppafly 2y ago
>I don't agree that Mitchell's reputation was harmed Agreed, but only because his reputation is so bad, that pretty much any slander wouldn't make it worse.
- alt227 2y ago
  As I said in my post below, Jobst went a step too far and inferred that he was responsible for somebodies death. That is a lot worse reputation than a cheater at video games and a serial lier.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    Yeah, I haven't been following the specifics so much, but you can't just call someone a murderer over and over and expect to not get sued. I am still sorta surprised that Billy won though considering that he's essentially a public figure and has an already negative reputation. I suppose calling someone a murderer is a step too far though. Australian laws are probably a little different than America's too.
ndiddy 2y ago
AFAIK the entire lawsuit was about Jobst falsely accusing Mitchell of driving Apollo Legend to suicide and then not properly retracting it (Jobst buried the retraction at the end of an unrelated 30 minute video). The reason why Mitchell's cheating was brought up in the trial was that Jobst's side were attempting to say that all reputational harm Mitchell suffered during that period was caused by cheating accusations, not Jobst's suicide accusations (as if being accused of cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide). Mitchell was able to prove this was false by producing emails from events that specifically said that they weren't hiring him due to Jobst's suicide accusations. Additionally, Jobst kept making videos berating Mitchell during the course of the trial, which seems to have pissed off the judge. From the decision: "Mr Jobst’s attitude seems to me to have been one of, “Well, if I’m going to be sued, I may as well go for broke and damn the consequences.” Far from being evidence of his bona fides, I consider his conduct to be reckless and to show no regard for the truth or for the effect of his video on Mr Mitchell and his reputation."
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > Jobst's side were attempting to say that all reputational harm Mitchell suffered during that period was caused by cheating accusations The cheating and the other lies and the rampant lawsuits. I agree with that causing almost all the damage. I hadn't even heard of the particular badly substantiated piece among the real stuff. > (as if being accused of cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide) ...no, not as if that. That is not part of the argument.
  - ndiddy 2y ago
    I recommend you read the decision if you're interested in this subject: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qdc/2025/41/pdf https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qdc/2025/41/p... > Mr Mitchell said that John Weeks was the organiser of an auction of the world’s largest collection of pinball and arcade gaming machines. Mr Mitchell had an agreement with him to host the auction for a fee of $50,000. After the publication of the video, Mr Weeks cancelled the agreement, apparently because of the negativity surrounding Mr Mitchell as a result of the video. Mr Mitchell later received an email from Mr Weeks confirming that cancellation, in which he said: > "As per our previous conversation, I apologize for our decision to withdraw our agreement with you to host you at our auction due to the allegations from Karl Jobst that you played a significant role in Apollo Legend’s decision to take his own life. We made the decision strictly for business reasons and I do not feel personal discontent with you, but the negativity brought by the claims presented too large a risk to us strictly from a business perspective." > Mr Mitchell recalled that another person, Ryan Burger, who had booked him for three separate events, cancelled all three and has not since booked him to appear at any events. Mr Burger also sent him an email cancelling the third event, saying: > "Due to the toxicity and negativity brought by Karl Jobst’s claim that you played a role in Apollo Legend’s decision to take his own life, Old School Gamer Magazine feels compelled to withdraw its $5,000 per weekend paid appearance offer also for the Midwest Gaming Classic. I had hoped that this would have faded by now so we didn’t have to cancel this event similar to Des Moines Gaming Classic and Planet Comicon appearances that we had withdrawn earlier this summer, but I think it’s best that we allow some time to pass given the current climate." > Whether or not the reasons given in those emails were true, the withdrawal of the offers demonstrated a harmful effect of the video on Mr Mitchell’s reputation and the receipt of the emails affected Mr Mitchell’s personal reactions to the video. Jobst's team argued that the suicide accusation didn't cause any damage because Mitchell's already poor reputation and the other claims he made in the video meant that it couldn't be harmed further. The judge pointed out in his decision that the cheating allegations and the suicide allegations impacted different "sectors" of Mitchell's reputation and that "In seeking to prove that the plaintiff already had a bad reputation (whether as a defence to an allegation of harm to reputation or because of substantially true contextual imputations), the allegedly bad reputation must be relevant to that “sector” of the plaintiff’s reputation that is, or may be, harmed by the imputations proved by the plaintiff." You're right that Jobst's team didn't literally argue that cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide.
kodt 2y ago
Interesting that Mitchell won his case against Twin Galaxies. It sounded like the expert testimony supporting his claim that the video defects could occur from a "malfunctioning cabinet" was not believed by anyone knowledgeable in the Donkey Kong/and MAME community but seemingly was believed by the judge?
- alt227 2y ago
  He didnt win, they settled out of court. https://www.ign.com/articles/billy-mitchells-donkey-kong-records-reinstated-twin-galaxies https://www.ign.com/articles/billy-mitchells-donkey-kong-rec... By all accounts it would have been a very interesting trial had it actually gone ahead.
  - Valodim 2y ago
    Billy paid a fraud expert, whose whole business is apparently providing fraud opinions, but that seemed to have tipped the scales (mentioned in TFA). Very unfortunate outcome. Well, the silver lining for Jobst in all of this is that he did build his YouTube channel (partly) on ranting about Billy, and that might be worth more than what he paid here.
noboostforyou 2y ago
> and when he learned it was false he kept it up anyway. That fact alone loses him this case. Re-uploading a video you yourself had edited/removed makes it all but impossible to claim you didn't know.

Suppafly 2y ago

>I don't agree that Mitchell's reputation was harmed Agreed, but only because his reputation is so bad, that pretty much any slander wouldn't make it worse.

alt227 2y ago
As I said in my post below, Jobst went a step too far and inferred that he was responsible for somebodies death. That is a lot worse reputation than a cheater at video games and a serial lier.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  Yeah, I haven't been following the specifics so much, but you can't just call someone a murderer over and over and expect to not get sued. I am still sorta surprised that Billy won though considering that he's essentially a public figure and has an already negative reputation. I suppose calling someone a murderer is a step too far though. Australian laws are probably a little different than America's too.

ndiddy 2y ago

AFAIK the entire lawsuit was about Jobst falsely accusing Mitchell of driving Apollo Legend to suicide and then not properly retracting it (Jobst buried the retraction at the end of an unrelated 30 minute video). The reason why Mitchell's cheating was brought up in the trial was that Jobst's side were attempting to say that all reputational harm Mitchell suffered during that period was caused by cheating accusations, not Jobst's suicide accusations (as if being accused of cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide). Mitchell was able to prove this was false by producing emails from events that specifically said that they weren't hiring him due to Jobst's suicide accusations. Additionally, Jobst kept making videos berating Mitchell during the course of the trial, which seems to have pissed off the judge. From the decision: "Mr Jobst’s attitude seems to me to have been one of, “Well, if I’m going to be sued, I may as well go for broke and damn the consequences.” Far from being evidence of his bona fides, I consider his conduct to be reckless and to show no regard for the truth or for the effect of his video on Mr Mitchell and his reputation."

Dylan16807 2y ago
> Jobst's side were attempting to say that all reputational harm Mitchell suffered during that period was caused by cheating accusations The cheating and the other lies and the rampant lawsuits. I agree with that causing almost all the damage. I hadn't even heard of the particular badly substantiated piece among the real stuff. > (as if being accused of cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide) ...no, not as if that. That is not part of the argument.
- ndiddy 2y ago
  I recommend you read the decision if you're interested in this subject: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qdc/2025/41/pdf https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qdc/2025/41/p... > Mr Mitchell said that John Weeks was the organiser of an auction of the world’s largest collection of pinball and arcade gaming machines. Mr Mitchell had an agreement with him to host the auction for a fee of $50,000. After the publication of the video, Mr Weeks cancelled the agreement, apparently because of the negativity surrounding Mr Mitchell as a result of the video. Mr Mitchell later received an email from Mr Weeks confirming that cancellation, in which he said: > "As per our previous conversation, I apologize for our decision to withdraw our agreement with you to host you at our auction due to the allegations from Karl Jobst that you played a significant role in Apollo Legend’s decision to take his own life. We made the decision strictly for business reasons and I do not feel personal discontent with you, but the negativity brought by the claims presented too large a risk to us strictly from a business perspective." > Mr Mitchell recalled that another person, Ryan Burger, who had booked him for three separate events, cancelled all three and has not since booked him to appear at any events. Mr Burger also sent him an email cancelling the third event, saying: > "Due to the toxicity and negativity brought by Karl Jobst’s claim that you played a role in Apollo Legend’s decision to take his own life, Old School Gamer Magazine feels compelled to withdraw its $5,000 per weekend paid appearance offer also for the Midwest Gaming Classic. I had hoped that this would have faded by now so we didn’t have to cancel this event similar to Des Moines Gaming Classic and Planet Comicon appearances that we had withdrawn earlier this summer, but I think it’s best that we allow some time to pass given the current climate." > Whether or not the reasons given in those emails were true, the withdrawal of the offers demonstrated a harmful effect of the video on Mr Mitchell’s reputation and the receipt of the emails affected Mr Mitchell’s personal reactions to the video. Jobst's team argued that the suicide accusation didn't cause any damage because Mitchell's already poor reputation and the other claims he made in the video meant that it couldn't be harmed further. The judge pointed out in his decision that the cheating allegations and the suicide allegations impacted different "sectors" of Mitchell's reputation and that "In seeking to prove that the plaintiff already had a bad reputation (whether as a defence to an allegation of harm to reputation or because of substantially true contextual imputations), the allegedly bad reputation must be relevant to that “sector” of the plaintiff’s reputation that is, or may be, harmed by the imputations proved by the plaintiff." You're right that Jobst's team didn't literally argue that cheating at Donkey Kong is equivalent to being accused of driving someone to suicide.

kodt 2y ago

Interesting that Mitchell won his case against Twin Galaxies. It sounded like the expert testimony supporting his claim that the video defects could occur from a "malfunctioning cabinet" was not believed by anyone knowledgeable in the Donkey Kong/and MAME community but seemingly was believed by the judge?

alt227 2y ago
He didnt win, they settled out of court. https://www.ign.com/articles/billy-mitchells-donkey-kong-records-reinstated-twin-galaxies https://www.ign.com/articles/billy-mitchells-donkey-kong-rec... By all accounts it would have been a very interesting trial had it actually gone ahead.
- Valodim 2y ago
  Billy paid a fraud expert, whose whole business is apparently providing fraud opinions, but that seemed to have tipped the scales (mentioned in TFA). Very unfortunate outcome. Well, the silver lining for Jobst in all of this is that he did build his YouTube channel (partly) on ranting about Billy, and that might be worth more than what he paid here.

noboostforyou 2y ago

> and when he learned it was false he kept it up anyway. That fact alone loses him this case. Re-uploading a video you yourself had edited/removed makes it all but impossible to claim you didn't know.