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In case you missed it, a co-founder of Honey did an AMA on this topic a few days ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jlfms8/im_ryan_hudson_the_cofound

In case you missed it, a co-founder of Honey did an AMA on this topic a few days ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jlfms8/im_ryan_hudson_the_cofounder_of_honey_ama/ https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1jlfms8/im_ryan_hudso... I'm not a honey user but I thought this section was interesting: > This gets a bit technical but in the video, Jonathon carefully shows you that the ‘NV_MC_LC’ cookie changes from Linus Tech Tips -> Paypal when a user engages with Honey. What he must have seen is that there is also a ‘NV_MC_FC’ cookie that stays affiliated with Linus Tech Tips and is NOT changed to Paypal. In this case LC stands for ‘last click’ and FC for ‘first click’. In the video he seems to claim that there is no first click cookie and only a last click cookie - this claim is false. > In my DM conversation with Jonathon he claimed that he noticed the FC cookie but didn’t think it was relevant and that he was confused by it. I wonder, as an investigative journalist, did he think to ask anyone at NewEgg or the affiliate networks to explain it to him before he threw damning accusations at an industry he didn’t understand?

jmuguy 2y ago
Yeah, somehow I doubt we'll ever see a follow up from MegaLag. Well except that he's probably getting sued into oblivion by Paypal for libel.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  SLAPP at its finest, eh. It's time libel laws get reformed, so that not only huuuuge ass international newspapers can afford to report shady shit by BigCo.
staindk 2y ago
I got a weird feeling from the MegaLag video, but overall don't think Honey are entirely in the clear either. From the AMA it seems Honey has been in the business of taking some/all affiliate revenue even in cases where it finds no coupons - sounds like the sites are fine/happy with this, but I'm sure people who post affiliate links are not.
- josephg 2y ago
  Yeah, the video wasn’t perfect. But honey is clearly a shady business. Honourable businesses don’t need to trick their customers and advertisers about how their business works. Honourable businesses don’t make an enemy of the truth.
  - twostorytower 2y ago
    It was never a secret that shopping extensions monetized through affiliate. Merchants certainly know what they’re signing up for.
    - josephg 2y ago
      > It was never a secret Their business model was never explained clearly on their website. Now that how it works has become common knowledge, its absolutely wrecked honey's public perception. Merchants may have known what they were signing up for (if they signed up at all). But the general public had no idea.
      - kin 2y ago
        Actually if you check wayback they've been telling us straight up since 2016 they make money off of commissions. https://web.archive.org/web/20180125135216/http://help.joinhoney.com/article/30-how-do-you-make-money https://web.archive.org/web/20180125135216/http://help.joinh... Affiliate attribution wasn't explained in full but MegaLag with all his research still didn't accurately explain it since it's pretty complex. The user doesn't need to know this. Doesn't make sense to explain all the nuts and bolts if it works the same way any other coupon website would.
    - eviks 2y ago
      But the most important group - users- didn't know, and one they learned about the "never a secret" info, a large chunk of them left
dandesim 2y ago
He's blatantly ignoring that most affiliate programs only payout to the last-click. Okay...great...the first click attribution is maintained, but if there is no payout for it, then the core issue is still the issue.
- kin 2y ago
  What is he blatantly ignoring? He's actually in a comment right above directly addressing mitigating last-click with stand-down policies.
jonny_eh 2y ago
Why even claim last click attribution while the user is literally on the site?
- charcircuit 2y ago
  Only a percentage of people on a site will convert. Increasing that percentage is valuable.
  - lozenge 2y ago
    How does displaying a message "Honey didn't find any discounts for your order" on the cart screen, increasing that percentage?
    - charcircuit 2y ago
      A potential customer could leave the site, spend time searching for a coupon code, not find anything and give up, and then not return to the site to complete the purchase. Honey could keep users on the site moving through the order flow even if it didn't find anything.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
cbdumas 2y ago
I saw that and I'm not convinced this changes anything. The fact that Honey is inserting itself into the affiliate attribution chain at all when it did literally nothing is still wrong to me.
- jahsome 2y ago
  There's a very reasonable argument to be made a number of shopers wouldn't convert if they didn't feel like they were getting a "deal." So honey is undeniably aiding in the sale. It's not "literally doing nothing" to compile and automatically apply/suggest coupon codes. That's literally doing something. Is it valuable? Objectively, yes, hence the millions upon millions of users. Your statement is either hyperbolic or disingenuous: the very two things people are accusing honey of doing.
  - LelouBil 2y ago
    I think they refer to the fact that Honey also sets itself as affiliate when not finding any code.
  - MostlyStable 2y ago
    weren't they inserting themselves even in cases where there was no available coupon? Finding the user a deal isn't "doing literally nothing", and the argument for honey inserting itself in that case is at least not crazy. But as I understand it, they inserted themselves in every case even when they very literally did nothing (no deal, nothing).
    - jahsome 2y ago
      I do agree that's shady, but there's a good chance at least some of those shoppers wouldn't have converted because they thought to themselves "I'll wait to make sure I can get the best deal" whereas someone with honey was in theory "sure" they were getting the best deal because no deals were available and pulled the trigger. Obviously in some cases that wasn't actually the case, but either way honey DID contribute to the sale. My point is the issue is not honey. The problem is affiliate marketing (specifically last click attribution) as a whole. Don't hate the player. Hate the game.
layoric 2y ago
This sounds like a distraction. "seems to claim that there is no first click cookie". He brought that up, it doesn't control the payout and doesn't change the result from what I understand. FC cookie is not relevant, Megalag was focusing on what was important information to impart to viewers. If they clicked on an affiliate link from their favorite creator, using Honey hijacked that action of support without disclosing anything.
ketau 2y ago
Ryan here too - will try to respond to some of these with more info. The two biggest missing pieces from both my discussion and from the video are: 1) stand down rules for affiliate, and 2) cash back to the user. I was trying to address the claims he raised in the video specifically and since he didn't mention either I didn't in my reddit post except for a little bit in a couple of the answers. 1) For the case where the store only uses last click (which is most of them) Honey and other browser extensions follow a rule set by the affiliate networks called 'stand down'. This means they attempt to detect when another affiliate link is clicked (e.g. from a creator) and then either fully disable the functionality or at least don't use affiliate links. Only browser extensions are subject to these rules (e.g. if you visit a coupon code website they will use their affiliate link and override the creator). Detecting this can be a bit tricky across numerous affiliate networks and I suspect the NewEgg example was selected because it used a non-standard way to manage affiliate tagging and therefore wasn't detected by Honey's stand down logic. fwiw I agree with the sentiment that Honey shouldn't have been tagging on a 'hey we didn't find any codes' or 'use paypal' click and I personally wouldn't have approved that, though it probably technically does meet most of the affiliate network stand down rules (well, at least it did - I'm sure they've been updated which is a good thing). 2) Jonathon's video is completely silent on the other core value proposition of Honey: cash back. Honey, like Rakuten, Capital One Shopping, etc, offers cash back funded by affiliate marketing. The model is not new - Ebates (now Rakuten Rewards) was founded in 1998. Honey added this program in 2015. When a user is shopping with Honey on a store with affiliate commission, Honey almost always gives the user cash back. There are a limited number of exceptions, generally because of the store's policy, and occasionally because there are so many exclusions to the affiliate program that it makes offering cash back confusing to a user. A valid question to ask is: if a user clicks a creator affiliate link AND has a cash back tool like Honey or Rakuten should they or should they not be eligible for cash back. Personally I think absolutely yes, the user's preference is the most important. But I've heard reasonable people argue the opposite. What I don't think is that offering it's users cash back makes Honey a scam and I think Jonathon was negligent in presenting this narrative without even considering this primary use case for what is actually the #1 business model in affiliate marketing. I'll stop there. Happy to answer a few more questions here.
- 2y ago
kelseydh 2y ago
Last Click Attribution is the most common model for affiliate revenue, not First Click Attribution. That the First Click Attribution cookie is still being set is mostly a red herring. Most online sales have 100% of the affiliate revenue going to Last Click Attribution.

jmuguy 2y ago

Yeah, somehow I doubt we'll ever see a follow up from MegaLag. Well except that he's probably getting sued into oblivion by Paypal for libel.

mschuster91 2y ago
SLAPP at its finest, eh. It's time libel laws get reformed, so that not only huuuuge ass international newspapers can afford to report shady shit by BigCo.

staindk 2y ago

I got a weird feeling from the MegaLag video, but overall don't think Honey are entirely in the clear either. From the AMA it seems Honey has been in the business of taking some/all affiliate revenue even in cases where it finds no coupons - sounds like the sites are fine/happy with this, but I'm sure people who post affiliate links are not.

josephg 2y ago
Yeah, the video wasn’t perfect. But honey is clearly a shady business. Honourable businesses don’t need to trick their customers and advertisers about how their business works. Honourable businesses don’t make an enemy of the truth.
- twostorytower 2y ago
  It was never a secret that shopping extensions monetized through affiliate. Merchants certainly know what they’re signing up for.
  - josephg 2y ago
    > It was never a secret Their business model was never explained clearly on their website. Now that how it works has become common knowledge, its absolutely wrecked honey's public perception. Merchants may have known what they were signing up for (if they signed up at all). But the general public had no idea.
    - kin 2y ago
      Actually if you check wayback they've been telling us straight up since 2016 they make money off of commissions. https://web.archive.org/web/20180125135216/http://help.joinhoney.com/article/30-how-do-you-make-money https://web.archive.org/web/20180125135216/http://help.joinh... Affiliate attribution wasn't explained in full but MegaLag with all his research still didn't accurately explain it since it's pretty complex. The user doesn't need to know this. Doesn't make sense to explain all the nuts and bolts if it works the same way any other coupon website would.
  - eviks 2y ago
    But the most important group - users- didn't know, and one they learned about the "never a secret" info, a large chunk of them left

dandesim 2y ago

He's blatantly ignoring that most affiliate programs only payout to the last-click. Okay...great...the first click attribution is maintained, but if there is no payout for it, then the core issue is still the issue.

kin 2y ago
What is he blatantly ignoring? He's actually in a comment right above directly addressing mitigating last-click with stand-down policies.

jonny_eh 2y ago

Why even claim last click attribution while the user is literally on the site?

charcircuit 2y ago
Only a percentage of people on a site will convert. Increasing that percentage is valuable.
- lozenge 2y ago
  How does displaying a message "Honey didn't find any discounts for your order" on the cart screen, increasing that percentage?
  - charcircuit 2y ago
    A potential customer could leave the site, spend time searching for a coupon code, not find anything and give up, and then not return to the site to complete the purchase. Honey could keep users on the site moving through the order flow even if it didn't find anything.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

cbdumas 2y ago

I saw that and I'm not convinced this changes anything. The fact that Honey is inserting itself into the affiliate attribution chain at all when it did literally nothing is still wrong to me.

jahsome 2y ago
There's a very reasonable argument to be made a number of shopers wouldn't convert if they didn't feel like they were getting a "deal." So honey is undeniably aiding in the sale. It's not "literally doing nothing" to compile and automatically apply/suggest coupon codes. That's literally doing something. Is it valuable? Objectively, yes, hence the millions upon millions of users. Your statement is either hyperbolic or disingenuous: the very two things people are accusing honey of doing.
- LelouBil 2y ago
  I think they refer to the fact that Honey also sets itself as affiliate when not finding any code.
- MostlyStable 2y ago
  weren't they inserting themselves even in cases where there was no available coupon? Finding the user a deal isn't "doing literally nothing", and the argument for honey inserting itself in that case is at least not crazy. But as I understand it, they inserted themselves in every case even when they very literally did nothing (no deal, nothing).
  - jahsome 2y ago
    I do agree that's shady, but there's a good chance at least some of those shoppers wouldn't have converted because they thought to themselves "I'll wait to make sure I can get the best deal" whereas someone with honey was in theory "sure" they were getting the best deal because no deals were available and pulled the trigger. Obviously in some cases that wasn't actually the case, but either way honey DID contribute to the sale. My point is the issue is not honey. The problem is affiliate marketing (specifically last click attribution) as a whole. Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

layoric 2y ago

This sounds like a distraction. "seems to claim that there is no first click cookie". He brought that up, it doesn't control the payout and doesn't change the result from what I understand. FC cookie is not relevant, Megalag was focusing on what was important information to impart to viewers. If they clicked on an affiliate link from their favorite creator, using Honey hijacked that action of support without disclosing anything.

ketau 2y ago

Ryan here too - will try to respond to some of these with more info. The two biggest missing pieces from both my discussion and from the video are: 1) stand down rules for affiliate, and 2) cash back to the user. I was trying to address the claims he raised in the video specifically and since he didn't mention either I didn't in my reddit post except for a little bit in a couple of the answers. 1) For the case where the store only uses last click (which is most of them) Honey and other browser extensions follow a rule set by the affiliate networks called 'stand down'. This means they attempt to detect when another affiliate link is clicked (e.g. from a creator) and then either fully disable the functionality or at least don't use affiliate links. Only browser extensions are subject to these rules (e.g. if you visit a coupon code website they will use their affiliate link and override the creator). Detecting this can be a bit tricky across numerous affiliate networks and I suspect the NewEgg example was selected because it used a non-standard way to manage affiliate tagging and therefore wasn't detected by Honey's stand down logic. fwiw I agree with the sentiment that Honey shouldn't have been tagging on a 'hey we didn't find any codes' or 'use paypal' click and I personally wouldn't have approved that, though it probably technically does meet most of the affiliate network stand down rules (well, at least it did - I'm sure they've been updated which is a good thing). 2) Jonathon's video is completely silent on the other core value proposition of Honey: cash back. Honey, like Rakuten, Capital One Shopping, etc, offers cash back funded by affiliate marketing. The model is not new - Ebates (now Rakuten Rewards) was founded in 1998. Honey added this program in 2015. When a user is shopping with Honey on a store with affiliate commission, Honey almost always gives the user cash back. There are a limited number of exceptions, generally because of the store's policy, and occasionally because there are so many exclusions to the affiliate program that it makes offering cash back confusing to a user. A valid question to ask is: if a user clicks a creator affiliate link AND has a cash back tool like Honey or Rakuten should they or should they not be eligible for cash back. Personally I think absolutely yes, the user's preference is the most important. But I've heard reasonable people argue the opposite. What I don't think is that offering it's users cash back makes Honey a scam and I think Jonathon was negligent in presenting this narrative without even considering this primary use case for what is actually the #1 business model in affiliate marketing. I'll stop there. Happy to answer a few more questions here.

2y ago

kelseydh 2y ago

Last Click Attribution is the most common model for affiliate revenue, not First Click Attribution. That the First Click Attribution cookie is still being set is mostly a red herring. Most online sales have 100% of the affiliate revenue going to Last Click Attribution.