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What I love about this comment is that one person thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and posted it, and then
by jdminhbg 2y ago
What I love about this comment is that one person thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and posted it, and then a bunch of other people thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and upvoted it, and not a single one of them thought to check what the "right thing" is.
Meanwhile, back here on Earth-1, there's no right thing, and countries all over the world have "by and large solved" the issue by doing completely different things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country
> Water fluoridation is considered very common in the United States, Canada, Ireland, Chile and Australia where over 50% of the population drinks fluoridated water.
> Most European countries including Italy, France, Finland, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, Poland, Hungary and Switzerland do not fluoridate water.
- nostromo 2y agoMost developed countries have stopped using fluoride. I think that’s the commenter’s point. The US and Australia are outliers here for sure.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ruph123 2y agoThe world map is hilarious. Germany sure does not look like this anymore (and this is not the GDR split but goes further back). Maybe they should update this. Draws into the question, the whole data.
- ddulaney 2y agoThe map is drawing Germany and Czechia both with the same white color as the border. Unfortunate that the color scheme is confusing, but not any weird borders. You can see the uncolored map here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BlankMap-World6-Equirectangular.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BlankMap-World6-Equirec...
- decimalenough 2y agoBoth non-fluoridating countries and country borders are white, so it's not that Germany is drawn wrong, but that that countries near Germany (Czechia, Netherlands, Luxembourg) look like they're part of the same white blob.
- quitit 2y agoThe missing context here is that the science and established benefits of fluoride aren’t a culture war political football in those countries. These countries largely publicly recognise the benefits of fluoride, but don’t add it because: - Some countries opt for intake via supplementation. - Some have a naturally sufficient supply in drinking water via natural processes. - Some even need to reduce the abundance of fluoride in their water due to over supply.
- piuantiderp 2y ago[flagged]
- MyOutfitIsVague 2y agoYou could help by providing something worth reading.
- DonHopkins 2y agoNot possible. He just needs to write less.
- margalabargala 2y agoEverything they said was true; is there some additional information that should have been provided above and beyond?
- adrian_b 2y ago[flagged]
- koshergweilo 2y ago[flagged]
- wqaatwt 2y agoSo same applies to the comment they were replying to and pretty much anything anyone said in this thread?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- FridgeSeal 2y agoIIRC _some_ of the European countries that “do not fluoridate their water” have naturally occurring fluoride levels in their water, obviating the need for them to do it.
- ekianjo 2y agoAre the levels in water consistently checked?
- vincnetas 2y agoof course they are. tap water is continually monitored for the chemical composition. there are aprooved norms that need to be met. (LT)
- Xylakant 2y agoAt least in Germany, tap water is subject to higher standards than bottled water.
- Beretta_Vexee 2y agoIn most European countries, tap water is one of the most tested food products, and the standards are often stricter than for bottled water.
- ManBeardPc 2y agoIn Germany having salt with added fluoride is very common. There is salt without it if you don’t want it though.
- weinzierl 2y agoThat is not true. You are probably thinking of iodine. Actually fluoride is prohibited in children's toothpaste in Germany because of its suspected neurotoxicity. EDIT: I checked. It is possible to buy salt with added fluoride in Germany but it comes with the health note "Zusätzliche fluoridhaltige Präparate sollten nur auf ärztliche Empfehlung eingenommen werden.", which means you should only use it on recommendation by your MD.
- wetpaws 2y ago[dead]
- Mistletoe 2y agoWhat does the UK do? This will tell you what people should do because I’ve seen English teeth. > In England, approximately 10% of the population, or around 6 million people, receive fluoridated water, either naturally or through water fluoridation schemes, mainly in the West Midlands and the North East. Uh oh. I know it is better now but in 1978 a third of people in the UK didn’t have their natural teeth.
- andai 2y agoI was reading a while ago about populations that moved to England, and within 2 generations their teeth are messed up (the first gen of kids born is usually raised on the food of their original culture). You saw it too in Canada when the Inuit went on food stamps and went from eating mostly meat to mostly plants: their teeth went all over the place and full of holes within a single generation. We also saw that with the advent of agriculture in general, along with a massive decline in average height.
- ustad 2y agoYou’re right that dietary changes can impact health, but there are other factors at play. Stress from moving to a new country or experiencing forced dislocation can have serious effects on physical health, weakening the immune system and disrupting overall well-being. Along with this, shifting away from nature-based vocations to more sedentary lifestyles contributes to health decline. The increased consumption of sugar and alcohol also exacerbates dental and general health issues. So, it’s not just diet but a combination of stress, lifestyle changes, and modern substances that contribute to health problems in these populations.
- consp 2y agoThis was not much different everywhere else. Public dental care campaigns helped a lot, the same with affordable dental care products. Looking at my parents generation there are lots of false teeth going around. (Not uk)
- drcongo 2y agoMy grandfather, who was still alive in 1978, had all his teeth removed and was given a set of dentures when conscripted into WWII. From what I can gather this was pretty common - the service dentist would check you over on arrival and if you had at least one cavity they'd whip the lot out so that they wouldn't need to do anything else to them for the rest of your service.
- frontfor 2y agoThe point is basically no one else has politicised this to the extent the US did. Pointing to how different countries solve it differently is missing the point completely.
- jdminhbg 2y ago"Well, whether it's better to fluoridate the water or not, ~half the world got the answer wrong. But the important thing is they didn't argue about it."
- jpmoral 2y agoMore like "there are pros and cons but there doesn't have to be a big political fight about it".
- jdminhbg 2y agoThe "big political fight" here is that one out of fifty US states changed its mind, to be clear.
- jpmoral 2y agoI'm not in the US but doesn't that downplay it a bit? Hasn't this been a contentious topic for some time? It's not like no one's been talking about it and Utah suddenly decided out of the blue.
- jdminhbg 2y ago> I'm not in the US but doesn't that downplay it a bit? No, not really. There are a couple municipalities (Portland, OR, e.g.) that have famously not fluoridated their water forever, but for the most part this is not something most places argue about. UT is an exception.
- briandear 2y ago
- bsza 2y agoWhile I acknowledge it is not a "solved" issue, I find it bizarre nonetheless, simply because it is so disproportionately low-stakes compared to the amount of controversy around it. Increased risk of cavities versus tentative evidence of losing 1-2 IQ points at 1.5 mg/L? Sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me that people would get so worked up over this.
- jdminhbg 2y agoAgree, it's a little bit like child Covid vaccinations. Not much evidence for either benefit or harm, recommended in the US but not most of Europe.
- epgui 2y agoIt’s not at all the same, that’s a terrible example. Child vaccinations help reduce the Rt, regardless of whether the benefit to the individual is significant. Statements to the contrary have just confused the public. (biochemist)
- jdminhbg 2y agoTell that to the European health agencies, I guess, they seem to be confused too.
- llbbdd 2y agoNothing new there.
- logicchains 2y agoNot necessarily, because excessive boosting is associated with increased infection rate/RTlt: https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(25)00067-2/fulltext https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(25)000...
- vasco 2y agoWhat Rt are you worried about in 2025?
- 827a 2y agoOnce you start trying to cross-reference a public health campaign with something related to peoples' diets, it becomes difficult to make super broad and conclusive statements. Here's some interesting data (2003 I believe, so pretty old) [1]: It reports that most of Europe, Canada, Australia, and South America experiences cavities at rates higher than the United States. However: Many of these countries have public health care; the US does not. Is the US under-reporting? (I didn't dig much deeper into the underlying data; may not be a relevant concern). Three things I think are likely to be true: (1) Fluoridated toothpaste is widely available and cheap. (2) Cavity rates are significant even in countries with high rates of fluoridation. (3) Fluoridating the water supply carries with it a non-zero monetary cost. I tend to believe that these three realities, at the very least, justify the conversation as being one we should have. It could be the case that water fluoridation made a ton of sense in a world where people didn't have as much access to fluoridated toothpaste, but nowadays the typical person has hit the limit on what it can do for them, and ingesting more is, at best, doing nothing. Here's another way I like to think about it: Put the science aside for a second (I know, hard, not ideal, but bear with me). You've got two people who are low income. Person A believes, for their own health and in the expression of their own personal liberties, they want access to fluoride; but the Government is not fluoridating their water. They can spend $5 a month to buy fluoridated toothpaste; possibly not even more expensive than the toothpaste they were already buying. Person B is living in the opposite world: They believe that they do not want to ingest fluoride, but the government is fluoridating their water. They would have to spend many dozens to hundreds of dollars a month buying water bottled somewhere more natural. From a personal liberty and economics perspective: Its pretty clear-cut. [1] https://smile-365.com/what-countries-have-the-lowest-prevalence-of-cavities/ https://smile-365.com/what-countries-have-the-lowest-prevale...
- wqaatwt 2y ago> a non-zero monetary cost Direct monetary cost is entirely insignificant, though. Potential risk of mental impairment (of course there is no conclusive evidence of that) seems like a much bigger issue.
- Xelynega 2y agoUsing your "person a" "person b" story, what about "persons c-z" that also want fluoride because they trust doctors? If one out of a hundred people don't want fluoride, can't they can spend slightly more on bottled water? Why require the other 99 to be up-to-date on research to get the best personal medical outcome?
- torginus 2y agoGenerally speaking I see fluoridation as a ridiciulous idea, on the grounds that the vast majority of tap water ends up being used for things other than brushing your teeth. It is wasteful and damaging to the environment, that excess flouride that has no business being there ends up in the drain, or the water you use for your plants. Flouride should be put in the toothpaste. Then people can make a choice on whether they want it, but most importantly, its in the only product that is actually used for brushing teeth
- heavyset_go 2y ago> It is wasteful and damaging to the environment It's basically a waste product and water naturally has fluoride in it at the same levels, or more, that fluoridated water has, and the environment has been just fine in those places.
- pbhjpbhj 2y agoFluoridation for public health is done at lower levels than fluoride is found naturally in water in other areas. If it's harmful as you imply, lots of water would need defluoridation.
- bowmessage 2y agohttps://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/nx-s1-5086886/fluoride-and-iq https://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/nx-s1-5086886/fluoride-and-iq
- pbhjpbhj 2y agoA useful thing to note, thanks. A link to the actual inconclusive report would have been better fwiw. Sounds like it's not important to address fluorine reduction if a casual relationship can be established. I do wonder how they compensated properly for fluoride being added in poorer areas. Will dig it out when I get chance.
- Tade0 2y agoGermany and France don't fluoridate water, but they add fluorine compounds to table salt. Meanwhile growing up in Poland in the 90s as kids we had these fluoridation sessions in school, for which everyone had to bring their toothbrush and brush their teeth with some kind of sour tasting fluid that contained fluorine.
- barotalomey 2y ago> we had these fluoridation sessions in school We had the same in Sweden up until the early 90s, and it's apparently doing sort of a revival in some schools. https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluortant https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluortant
- nicbou 2y agoIn Germany, you can buy salt with or without fluorine. Both options are available at my local Lidl. It's clearly marked on the front of the box.
- verytrivial 2y agoI thought the comment was about resolving the issue one way or the other without it becoming yet another polarization topic . It probably matters less in either resolution than the cost due schisms and distrust the "debate" causes.
- wil421 2y agoHow much natural fluoride does Europe have in their water?
- kzrdude 2y agoThe map accounts for that
- nxpnsv 2y agoSure, but they are also not fighting about it, this seems crucial.
- draw_down 2y ago[dead]
- evantbyrne 2y agoNever interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. The whole "everyone else agrees on X" bit is such a reliable tell.
- freehorse 2y agoRegardless of whether the water is fluoridated or not, the main guideline is "brush your teeth with fluoridated toothpaste". No policy maker elsewhere is pushing narratives against fluoride at large like in the US. These narratives there are even dangerous. One can easily look at dental associations reviews, or official state guidelines and see that more or less they say very similar things. It is very easy to find these policy-informing reviews online. And regardless of whether the water is fluoridated or not, there is no big debate elsewhere about it, nobody cares that much about it, because all the evidence is that in smaller amounts prob it is does not matter much either way, in the presence of people brushing their teeth. A lot of countries stopped it due to logistic purposes. In netherlands they tried fluoride in the water, a court said they should actually pass a law in order to be able to do it, and they did not even bother with that and dropped it. The fact that some countries may not use fluoride in the water is not due to some deeply-held conviction about how destructive fluoride is for the iq of the kids. In terms of risks of fluoride, fluorosis is what is mostly discussed anyway, and to a degree, unless it is too serious, this may just be an aesthetic issue. From the perspective of one that watches this craziness from outside, the whole debate is non-sense, and whether some european countries use water fluoridation or not is not very important, it does not cause any heated debate in the EU. The debate in the US is not because the US considers some things that others do not consider. There is no actual truthseeking mentality from the current administration or anybody on this to actually find for sure if fluoride decreases iq, or if fluoride in the water is absolutely essential for dental health even if people are brushing their teeth.
- ineedasername 2y agoThe issue, to my eyes at least, is much less of water, and much more of fluoride itself. That is what seems mostly a settled and non controversial topic elsewhere such that it is not perennially raised anew with tone of fans quoting Dr. Strangelove except meaning it.
- karaterobot 2y agoIncisive comment, thanks for questioning the assumptions here.