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Talk to your dentist. They are experts in this field, and, unlike “random person on the internet who spent 2 minutes on google”, have informed opinions on this

Talk to your dentist. They are experts in this field, and, unlike “random person on the internet who spent 2 minutes on google”, have informed opinions on this topic. If you want a serious discussion on why fluoride is good or bad, that’s where you need to go. Random person on the internet is very easy to disagree with, because we’re all idiots right? It’s a very easy lazy way of self confirmation. …but if you are serious about critically considering the issue and facing your own biases, talk to an actual topic expert. My dentist told me he had carefully reviewed the literature and determined to his satisfaction that public fluoridated water was in the best interests of public health, currently. He offered to share some reading that he was convinced by. You can’t really ask for more that that. Discussing this here is a bit like protesting by posting on social media; yes, I suppose it’s better than doing nothing and not engaging with the topic at all… but only barely, and not in any meaningful way.

like_any_other 2y ago
Are teeth the only thing affected by water fluoridation? Why do almost no other countries fluoridate drinking water? Even if it does turn out to be unambiguously good, people have a basic right to make their own medical decisions. Recent systematic reviews suggest an association between higher fluoride exposure and lower IQ in children. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation
- wokwokwok 2y ago
  If you're not prepared to listen to an expert, and that's what your dentist is on this topic, then nothing I, or anyone else can say, makes any difference to you. At some point, you have to accept that your random wikipedia page and 5 minutes on google is not a convincing argument. This is right up there in the conspiracy theory territory. Rational discussion means listening to experts and admitting that you are not an expert. What do you want me to say? You aren't a qualified expert on this topic. If you want an expert opinion, talk to an expert, not some dubious fucking provenance wikipedia page.
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    > If you're not prepared to listen to an expert Who do you think conducted those peer-reviewed systematic reviews? I'm sorry if I don't take the word of some random guy's dentist over multiple meta analyses in major medical journals. And I don't need an expert to tell me people should have the right to make their own medical decisions. And finally, I live in a country where public health experts have decided against water fluoridation. This is represents the vast majority of countries. What now? Should I pick some other experts to listen to?
    - wokwokwok 2y ago
      You are not an expert in this field, and cherry-picking random articles in random journals does not make you an expert. > Should I pick some other experts to listen to? I think it's reasonably clear that you haven't spoken to an expert in this field. > I'm sorry if I don't take the word of some random guy's dentist over multiple meta analyses in major medical journals. Are you certain you're competent to review and understand the literature on the topic? It takes a lot of time and effort; that's what dentists do as a job. That's why they have to go to school. That's why random people on the internet do not do dentistry. If you don't trust my dentist, then talk to your dentist. This is literally my point: I'm not telling you how it is; I'm telling you, talk to someone who knows what they're talking about; and, don't believe that you are an expert because you put some trivial amount of effort into investigating it yourself. You can't be an expert at everything. No one can. As some point, you have to trust other people.
      - kelnos 2y ago
        I'm also not convinced that a dentist is credibly an expert here. Sure, I would absolutely expect my dentist to understand what benefits fluoridated water might provide to my teeth. I would not, for example, expect my dentist to be an expert in whether or not fluoridated water could cause damage to other parts of my body. My previous dentist pushed these $80 (not covered by insurance) fluoride treatments on every cleaning visit. There's no research that shows much of anything about their effectiveness (good or bad). Yet they push them anyway, because it (their words) might help and probably won't harm. That doesn't give me a good feeling about their competence to have an expert opinion on this sort of thing. I would, however, trust the opinion of someone who is doing medical/dental research, and holds a doctorate in a relevant field.
- jandrewrogers 2y ago
  That study is taken grossly out of context. It doesn’t claim what people claim it does and even the study states that the quality of the data on which the weaker claim was made is suspect. The bigger issue is that we have vast amounts of scientific data and empirical evidence around fluoride toxicity. People are injured and die due to fluorine exposure, we understand how it interacts with biology. Any mechanism of action that can support the hypothesis that fluorine causes brain damage necessarily invalidates all of this evidence and is difficult to explain as a matter of basic chemistry. And then we have to explain why fluoride in water has this effect but the much higher levels of fluoride in food does not. Fluoridating municipal water may not offer much benefit but there is no credible science that it is actually harmful. Large regions of the world have water that naturally has far higher fluorine content than municipal water and there is no evidence of IQ reduction in these regions either.
petesergeant 2y ago
> Talk to your dentist The vast majority of dentists are not public health experts, and will have little to offer other than “exposing your teeth to fluoride regularly is good”.
- kelnos 2y ago
  Right exactly. And I do that, twice a day, when I brush my teeth with fluoride toothpaste.
ars 2y ago
> Talk to your dentist. They are experts in this field No they are not. The are experts are filling cavities and treatment. They have no additional knowledge of fluoride in water vs any other interested person. For that you need to talk to someone in research, which is not someone seeing patients.

like_any_other 2y ago

Are teeth the only thing affected by water fluoridation? Why do almost no other countries fluoridate drinking water? Even if it does turn out to be unambiguously good, people have a basic right to make their own medical decisions. Recent systematic reviews suggest an association between higher fluoride exposure and lower IQ in children. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

wokwokwok 2y ago
If you're not prepared to listen to an expert, and that's what your dentist is on this topic, then nothing I, or anyone else can say, makes any difference to you. At some point, you have to accept that your random wikipedia page and 5 minutes on google is not a convincing argument. This is right up there in the conspiracy theory territory. Rational discussion means listening to experts and admitting that you are not an expert. What do you want me to say? You aren't a qualified expert on this topic. If you want an expert opinion, talk to an expert, not some dubious fucking provenance wikipedia page.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > If you're not prepared to listen to an expert Who do you think conducted those peer-reviewed systematic reviews? I'm sorry if I don't take the word of some random guy's dentist over multiple meta analyses in major medical journals. And I don't need an expert to tell me people should have the right to make their own medical decisions. And finally, I live in a country where public health experts have decided against water fluoridation. This is represents the vast majority of countries. What now? Should I pick some other experts to listen to?
  - wokwokwok 2y ago
    You are not an expert in this field, and cherry-picking random articles in random journals does not make you an expert. > Should I pick some other experts to listen to? I think it's reasonably clear that you haven't spoken to an expert in this field. > I'm sorry if I don't take the word of some random guy's dentist over multiple meta analyses in major medical journals. Are you certain you're competent to review and understand the literature on the topic? It takes a lot of time and effort; that's what dentists do as a job. That's why they have to go to school. That's why random people on the internet do not do dentistry. If you don't trust my dentist, then talk to your dentist. This is literally my point: I'm not telling you how it is; I'm telling you, talk to someone who knows what they're talking about; and, don't believe that you are an expert because you put some trivial amount of effort into investigating it yourself. You can't be an expert at everything. No one can. As some point, you have to trust other people.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      I'm also not convinced that a dentist is credibly an expert here. Sure, I would absolutely expect my dentist to understand what benefits fluoridated water might provide to my teeth. I would not, for example, expect my dentist to be an expert in whether or not fluoridated water could cause damage to other parts of my body. My previous dentist pushed these $80 (not covered by insurance) fluoride treatments on every cleaning visit. There's no research that shows much of anything about their effectiveness (good or bad). Yet they push them anyway, because it (their words) might help and probably won't harm. That doesn't give me a good feeling about their competence to have an expert opinion on this sort of thing. I would, however, trust the opinion of someone who is doing medical/dental research, and holds a doctorate in a relevant field.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
That study is taken grossly out of context. It doesn’t claim what people claim it does and even the study states that the quality of the data on which the weaker claim was made is suspect. The bigger issue is that we have vast amounts of scientific data and empirical evidence around fluoride toxicity. People are injured and die due to fluorine exposure, we understand how it interacts with biology. Any mechanism of action that can support the hypothesis that fluorine causes brain damage necessarily invalidates all of this evidence and is difficult to explain as a matter of basic chemistry. And then we have to explain why fluoride in water has this effect but the much higher levels of fluoride in food does not. Fluoridating municipal water may not offer much benefit but there is no credible science that it is actually harmful. Large regions of the world have water that naturally has far higher fluorine content than municipal water and there is no evidence of IQ reduction in these regions either.

petesergeant 2y ago

> Talk to your dentist The vast majority of dentists are not public health experts, and will have little to offer other than “exposing your teeth to fluoride regularly is good”.

kelnos 2y ago
Right exactly. And I do that, twice a day, when I brush my teeth with fluoride toothpaste.

ars 2y ago

> Talk to your dentist. They are experts in this field No they are not. The are experts are filling cavities and treatment. They have no additional knowledge of fluoride in water vs any other interested person. For that you need to talk to someone in research, which is not someone seeing patients.