5 ms·

Chess324 – A Chess Variant to Reduce Draws

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
azhenley 2y ago
Fairly small change, just some changes to the initial piece placement. “All Kings, Rooks, Pawns are in their original locations as chess but other pieces are placed randomly in their first and last ranks, with no symmetry requirement between two sides, with the only restriction for bishops of each side must be on different colored squares.”
- Suppafly 2y ago
  so the knights and bishops can swap places?
ActivePattern 2y ago
The idea of an asymmetric Chess starting position is very interesting, although it does introduce more risk of one side starting with a big advantage (perhaps this has been analyzed). I also like that in this variant, castling works like normal -- that is one of the most unintuitive aspects of Chess960.
- philsnow 2y ago
  > one side starting with a big advantage I have never played this variant of chess, but on the surface it seems that having both bishops on the same color would be a sizeable disadvantage. The other randomized pieces (queens and knights) can get to any square, so having two knights start on dark squares, for instance, doesn't seem to really matter.
  - anamexis 2y ago
    The bishops are required to be on different colors.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- IvanChess744v3 2y ago
  We fixed the castling issue with Chess 744. Thoughts? https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game
  - ActivePattern 2y ago
    Yes, that appears to be another good solution to the castling trickiness! And probably how you assume castling works in Chess960 if you weren't given the rules.
    - IvanChess744v3 2y ago
      But that's the problem with Chess 960 - that's not how you castle at all in that variant.
- orthoxerox 2y ago
  One option is bidding with points: player A looks at the position and bids X<0.5 points for the privilege of picking the color. Player B either accepts or raises the bid, the process repeats until one of them accepts or bids 0.5 points. The match is then played for the remaining 1-X points. Or, more simply, player A is shown N random positions, picks one of them and lets player B pick the color.
  - bsder 2y ago
    Or you just run things like duplicate bridge. Everybody plays the same set of randomized boards.
  - ActivePattern 2y ago
    I don't think that bidding system really works. If one side is strongly favored in the opening, the optimal bid would be essentially 0.4999999999... so that you can pick the color and win the game by a slim margin. Players then increase the bid with tiny steps ad infinitum. The other idea works but is essentially just discarding all of the lopsided starting positions, in which case they might as well not be in the game.
BurningFrog 2y ago
With an asymmetrical setup there has to be cases where one side has a real advantage over the other. How big is hard to know. Maybe it doesn't matter much. Chess engines can figure that out empirically. PS I checked, and this has several mentions before April 1!
- qsort 2y ago
  It's by Larry Kaufman, so it's safe to assume it's for computer chess rather than humans. If that's the case, it's not a problem; engine matches are usually played as "game pairs" where each engine plays the same position as both White and Black. Having unbalanced positions could even be better, as you'd be more likely to have a decisive game pair.
ak_111 2y ago
Has anyone thought/experimented of a variant that works a bit like the starting phase of Risk: pawns are as they are classically, but players take turns in the beginning phase placing their other pieces in their respective bottom/upper file.
- gweinberg 2y ago
  I've heard of that variant but I think it is very seldom played. I don't know if it has a name.
- autocorr 2y ago
  I've heard this referred to as either Placement Chess or Bronstein's Chess (after the GM who reportedly suggested it). It's available to play on https://pychess.org https://pychess.org, where it's called Placement Chess.
- jerf 2y ago
  Yes: https://www.chessvariants.com/alphabet.html https://www.chessvariants.com/alphabet.html My point not being that that is a link straight to the exact thing you've described, but that if you ask that site for all the variants it has with a blank search [1], the first 500 variants on file (give or take some administrative garbage) gets you the variants starting with a number and up to "Avalanche Chess" alphabetically... that is, you can't even get all the way through the As before the search bails out. [1]: https://www.chessvariants.com/index/mainquery.php https://www.chessvariants.com/index/mainquery.php
seanhunter 2y ago
I don’t personally think reducing draws would improve the game at all
- RUnconcerned 2y ago
  This is primarily for computer chess, where the draw rate is even higher than in super-GM level chess. It's an alternative to having engines play from a preset position where one side starts with a significant advantage, which is what usually happens in computer chess tournaments. It's essentially the subset of Chess960 positions that don't need modifications to the castling rule, and thus should work on all engines without requiring any changes to the code.
  - tomku 2y ago
    It's not quite a subset of Chess960 positions, because Chess324 allows different piece layouts between white and black and Chess960 does not. Edit: A comment further down points out that only 18 of the 324 positions are symmetrical, so the vast majority of Chess324 positions could not happen in 960.
  - kibwen 2y ago
    An alternative is just to stop bending over backwards solely for the sake of supporting castling, which is an inelegant hack in the first place.
- legitster 2y ago
  I don't think this variant is for playing, but for practicing tactical games against a computer.
- gweinberg 2y ago
  Certainly not if it is done by randomly giving one player a substantial advantage.
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  Isn't the argument something about how grandmasters are incentivized to play it safe to a draw much of the time, which results in less interesting games?
slig 2y ago
How does this work? Do players secretly choose their starting positions, or are the starting positions randomly determined?
- CollinEMac 2y ago
  I think the idea is that you'd play with a chess engine that randomizes the positions for each player.
  - zzo38computer 2y ago
    I suppose, if you do not have a computer (or do not want to use it) then you might use dice to make the decision. (You can use d20 good enough, that there are 18 possibilities, and if it is 19 or 20 then roll again. Opponent then does the same with their pieces, too.)
SamBam 2y ago
Does this "reduce draws" purely because it randomly gives one side a small (or big) advantage? If so, that doesn't seem to be an improvement at all. It would be easy enough to test if one side having an advantage is common: have a chess engine play against itself many times using the same setup. The try a new setup. Find out what percentage of the time one side seems to have been given an advantage. (i.e. an advantage that's greater than the built-in one that white has.) If there's a different reason this reduces draws, what is that reason? If it's simply reducing the reliance on book openings, that's fine, although there are other solutions for that. If there's something in a particular piece structure that reduces draws, what is it?
- RUnconcerned 2y ago
  This was developed mostly for computer chess, where games are often played starting from preset positions, where one side already has a significant advantage. The top chess engines, when playing each other from the regular starting position, which is very equal, will almost always draw (especially in time controls where they have an increment of one second or more), so we humans have to force them to play lines that they would never go into so that the games aren't all draws (and while some games can be exciting and still drawn, that is not the case with most of the lines the engines will pick when playing from the start position). This is essentially just a subset of the Chess960 positions that don't require any modification to the castling rule.
y-curious 2y ago
I agree with the idea that rooks should be in their regular positions along with the king; This makes the castling rules much more intuitive than chess960. I think the asymmetric starting position is going to be pretty rough as this would lead to huge advantages. E.g. having 2 bishops next to each other is so much stronger than not.
cowpig 2y ago
Chess960[0] aka Fischer Random aka "Freestyle Chess" (the last is a name chess.com has been using") is a fairly popular variant with 960 possible starting positions. The way I'm interpreting this, 324 is different in that the rooks & kings are fixed, but the position is asymmetric. Is it called 324 because there are 324 possible starting positions? Also, I'm inferring that this is popular in computer chess specifically, is there a reason for that? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 edit: there's a quote from the inventor in the wiki that answers my first question and sort of answers the second: > This version has huge advantages over chess960. First, no special castling rules, any engine or GUI or human can play with no instruction after seeing the initial position. Second, since all but 18 of the 324 positions are asymmetrical, opening play should be much more interesting and complex. Third, the normal positioning of the rooks and kings and normal castling makes the game feel closer to normal chess. Fourth, matches of up to 648 games can be played with no repeat positions, generally enough for most purposes. Most important, no matter how many cores or how much time the engines get, there should be plenty of decisive games for the foreseeable future since many positions are at least not too far from the win/draw line.
- tromp 2y ago
  > Is it called 324 because there are 324 possible starting positions? Yes, each side has 18 possible setups. The bishops have 3 x 2 possible opposite-color placements among the 5 squares, and then the queen and 2 knights have 3 ways to occupy the remaining 3 squares. 18 x 18 = 324.
fsiefken 2y ago
How does this compare 'draw reduction' wise with Chess480 (by John Kipling Lewis) or Chess18 https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/34852/chess480-why-480 https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/34852/chess480-why... https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crd700/thoughts_on_chess18/ https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crd700/thoughts_on_...
- altairprime 2y ago
  Or to Really Bad Chess (2016) by Zach Gage?
jesterswilde 2y ago
Chess and Go are very different in that one is for points and the other is for annihilation. However, Go solved the draw (and first player advantage) with 'komi'. Giving white (the second player) some extra points, I think it's usually around 6.5 points right now. The amount that komi should be is still up for debate and changing, though I think everyone agrees the half portion is good. Though stronger players can no longer give 'presents', where you force a draw on a weaker opponent by ensuring both players end up with the same amount of points. Is there amendment to chess that could work similarly? Nothing is coming to mind, but Chess is not my domain.
- pmontra 2y ago
  Actually komi in go solves the problem that black won nearly all the even games between strong players, except when white was an exceptionally strong player. Hence the original 4.5 points komi about 100 years ago. The half point is the part that turns a draw into a win for white, that starts playing after black. But it's not strictly necessary: we could state in the rules that white wins draws. Black started playing less conservatively and komi was soon adjusted to 5.5 points. It became 6.5 points at the turn of the century. It's 7.5 with Chinese and area rules. This variant of chess seems to me potentially unfair to the player that gets a bad starting position, one that loses most games or that could even be winning but only with a narrow and difficult path to find. It could work in a tournament if all players have to play all the initial configurations. In thnk
  - kadoban 2y ago
    Just for fun: it is worth noting that there were/are other solutions to the "black wins" problem, usually in the form of playing multiple games and alternating colors, and stuff like kadoban formats where if you win multiple times you start getting pushed to get progressively larger handicaps and see if you can win then.
- IvanChess744v3 2y ago
  Chess 960 was done to address memorized openings and,to a certain degree,the issue of draws. But Chess960's castling mechanism is totally unintuitive. So, Chess 744 was born. The exact mechanic (rook moves to king and king swings behind it) from standard chess is used and all of chess 960's setups that had a rook and the king in a corner were removed. This website goes into detail. There is no better method, IMHO, of creating an intuitive chess variation that addresses this issue. It is very hard and unintuitive in Chess 960 to remember where to move your pieces to castle and whether or not it is even legal given the squares the king has to move through. https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game
IvanChess744 2y ago
So, this website introduces Chess 744 and addresses the confusing castling issues of Chess 960. Basically, we removed the Chess 960 setups with rook and king in a corner and then used the exact mechanic from standard chess. Rool moves to king (if not already adjacent) and then king swings behind the rook. Here is the site - along with a designated setup for each calendar day. https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game
- toast0 2y ago
  > the exact mechanic from standard chess The mechanic for standard chess is: (If Rook and King have not moved (and no funny business with pawns promoted to Rook), and none of the three spaces the King is involved with are attacked, and all the spaces between the King and the Rook are unoccupied) King moves two spaces, Rook moves to the space the king passed over. The order is important, at least in tournament play.
  - scott_w 2y ago
    Small nitpick: you could replace “no funny business with pawns promoted to Rook” with “and are on their home squares” as there’s no way for a promoted pawn to get to a rook’s home square without moving ;)
    - toast0 2y ago
      Well... if you want to get into really funny business, white could promote to a black Rook on its home square (not valid with current FIDE rules, but older rule sets weren't always specific about the color of the piece promoted to). I don't think you should castle with that Rook, but maybe? I guess something about being on the squares since the beginning of the game.
      - scott_w 2y ago
        Yeah but now you’re following a path the rules don’t allow so it’s not really necessary :-p

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Fairly small change, just some changes to the initial piece placement. “All Kings, Rooks, Pawns are in their original locations as chess but other pieces are placed randomly in their first and last ranks, with no symmetry requirement between two sides, with the only restriction for bishops of each side must be on different colored squares.”

Suppafly 2y ago
so the knights and bishops can swap places?

ActivePattern 2y ago

The idea of an asymmetric Chess starting position is very interesting, although it does introduce more risk of one side starting with a big advantage (perhaps this has been analyzed). I also like that in this variant, castling works like normal -- that is one of the most unintuitive aspects of Chess960.

philsnow 2y ago
> one side starting with a big advantage I have never played this variant of chess, but on the surface it seems that having both bishops on the same color would be a sizeable disadvantage. The other randomized pieces (queens and knights) can get to any square, so having two knights start on dark squares, for instance, doesn't seem to really matter.
- anamexis 2y ago
  The bishops are required to be on different colors.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
IvanChess744v3 2y ago
We fixed the castling issue with Chess 744. Thoughts? https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game
- ActivePattern 2y ago
  Yes, that appears to be another good solution to the castling trickiness! And probably how you assume castling works in Chess960 if you weren't given the rules.
  - IvanChess744v3 2y ago
    But that's the problem with Chess 960 - that's not how you castle at all in that variant.
orthoxerox 2y ago
One option is bidding with points: player A looks at the position and bids X<0.5 points for the privilege of picking the color. Player B either accepts or raises the bid, the process repeats until one of them accepts or bids 0.5 points. The match is then played for the remaining 1-X points. Or, more simply, player A is shown N random positions, picks one of them and lets player B pick the color.
- bsder 2y ago
  Or you just run things like duplicate bridge. Everybody plays the same set of randomized boards.
- ActivePattern 2y ago
  I don't think that bidding system really works. If one side is strongly favored in the opening, the optimal bid would be essentially 0.4999999999... so that you can pick the color and win the game by a slim margin. Players then increase the bid with tiny steps ad infinitum. The other idea works but is essentially just discarding all of the lopsided starting positions, in which case they might as well not be in the game.

BurningFrog 2y ago

With an asymmetrical setup there has to be cases where one side has a real advantage over the other. How big is hard to know. Maybe it doesn't matter much. Chess engines can figure that out empirically. PS I checked, and this has several mentions before April 1!

qsort 2y ago
It's by Larry Kaufman, so it's safe to assume it's for computer chess rather than humans. If that's the case, it's not a problem; engine matches are usually played as "game pairs" where each engine plays the same position as both White and Black. Having unbalanced positions could even be better, as you'd be more likely to have a decisive game pair.

ak_111 2y ago

Has anyone thought/experimented of a variant that works a bit like the starting phase of Risk: pawns are as they are classically, but players take turns in the beginning phase placing their other pieces in their respective bottom/upper file.

gweinberg 2y ago
I've heard of that variant but I think it is very seldom played. I don't know if it has a name.
autocorr 2y ago
I've heard this referred to as either Placement Chess or Bronstein's Chess (after the GM who reportedly suggested it). It's available to play on https://pychess.org https://pychess.org, where it's called Placement Chess.
jerf 2y ago
Yes: https://www.chessvariants.com/alphabet.html https://www.chessvariants.com/alphabet.html My point not being that that is a link straight to the exact thing you've described, but that if you ask that site for all the variants it has with a blank search [1], the first 500 variants on file (give or take some administrative garbage) gets you the variants starting with a number and up to "Avalanche Chess" alphabetically... that is, you can't even get all the way through the As before the search bails out. [1]: https://www.chessvariants.com/index/mainquery.php https://www.chessvariants.com/index/mainquery.php

seanhunter 2y ago

I don’t personally think reducing draws would improve the game at all

RUnconcerned 2y ago
This is primarily for computer chess, where the draw rate is even higher than in super-GM level chess. It's an alternative to having engines play from a preset position where one side starts with a significant advantage, which is what usually happens in computer chess tournaments. It's essentially the subset of Chess960 positions that don't need modifications to the castling rule, and thus should work on all engines without requiring any changes to the code.
- tomku 2y ago
  It's not quite a subset of Chess960 positions, because Chess324 allows different piece layouts between white and black and Chess960 does not. Edit: A comment further down points out that only 18 of the 324 positions are symmetrical, so the vast majority of Chess324 positions could not happen in 960.
- kibwen 2y ago
  An alternative is just to stop bending over backwards solely for the sake of supporting castling, which is an inelegant hack in the first place.
legitster 2y ago
I don't think this variant is for playing, but for practicing tactical games against a computer.
gweinberg 2y ago
Certainly not if it is done by randomly giving one player a substantial advantage.
bitshiftfaced 2y ago
Isn't the argument something about how grandmasters are incentivized to play it safe to a draw much of the time, which results in less interesting games?

slig 2y ago

How does this work? Do players secretly choose their starting positions, or are the starting positions randomly determined?

CollinEMac 2y ago
I think the idea is that you'd play with a chess engine that randomizes the positions for each player.
- zzo38computer 2y ago
  I suppose, if you do not have a computer (or do not want to use it) then you might use dice to make the decision. (You can use d20 good enough, that there are 18 possibilities, and if it is 19 or 20 then roll again. Opponent then does the same with their pieces, too.)

SamBam 2y ago

Does this "reduce draws" purely because it randomly gives one side a small (or big) advantage? If so, that doesn't seem to be an improvement at all. It would be easy enough to test if one side having an advantage is common: have a chess engine play against itself many times using the same setup. The try a new setup. Find out what percentage of the time one side seems to have been given an advantage. (i.e. an advantage that's greater than the built-in one that white has.) If there's a different reason this reduces draws, what is that reason? If it's simply reducing the reliance on book openings, that's fine, although there are other solutions for that. If there's something in a particular piece structure that reduces draws, what is it?

RUnconcerned 2y ago
This was developed mostly for computer chess, where games are often played starting from preset positions, where one side already has a significant advantage. The top chess engines, when playing each other from the regular starting position, which is very equal, will almost always draw (especially in time controls where they have an increment of one second or more), so we humans have to force them to play lines that they would never go into so that the games aren't all draws (and while some games can be exciting and still drawn, that is not the case with most of the lines the engines will pick when playing from the start position). This is essentially just a subset of the Chess960 positions that don't require any modification to the castling rule.

y-curious 2y ago

I agree with the idea that rooks should be in their regular positions along with the king; This makes the castling rules much more intuitive than chess960. I think the asymmetric starting position is going to be pretty rough as this would lead to huge advantages. E.g. having 2 bishops next to each other is so much stronger than not.

cowpig 2y ago

Chess960[0] aka Fischer Random aka "Freestyle Chess" (the last is a name chess.com has been using") is a fairly popular variant with 960 possible starting positions. The way I'm interpreting this, 324 is different in that the rooks & kings are fixed, but the position is asymmetric. Is it called 324 because there are 324 possible starting positions? Also, I'm inferring that this is popular in computer chess specifically, is there a reason for that? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 edit: there's a quote from the inventor in the wiki that answers my first question and sort of answers the second: > This version has huge advantages over chess960. First, no special castling rules, any engine or GUI or human can play with no instruction after seeing the initial position. Second, since all but 18 of the 324 positions are asymmetrical, opening play should be much more interesting and complex. Third, the normal positioning of the rooks and kings and normal castling makes the game feel closer to normal chess. Fourth, matches of up to 648 games can be played with no repeat positions, generally enough for most purposes. Most important, no matter how many cores or how much time the engines get, there should be plenty of decisive games for the foreseeable future since many positions are at least not too far from the win/draw line.

tromp 2y ago
> Is it called 324 because there are 324 possible starting positions? Yes, each side has 18 possible setups. The bishops have 3 x 2 possible opposite-color placements among the 5 squares, and then the queen and 2 knights have 3 ways to occupy the remaining 3 squares. 18 x 18 = 324.

fsiefken 2y ago

How does this compare 'draw reduction' wise with Chess480 (by John Kipling Lewis) or Chess18 https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/34852/chess480-why-480 https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/34852/chess480-why... https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crd700/thoughts_on_chess18/ https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1crd700/thoughts_on_...

altairprime 2y ago
Or to Really Bad Chess (2016) by Zach Gage?

jesterswilde 2y ago

Chess and Go are very different in that one is for points and the other is for annihilation. However, Go solved the draw (and first player advantage) with 'komi'. Giving white (the second player) some extra points, I think it's usually around 6.5 points right now. The amount that komi should be is still up for debate and changing, though I think everyone agrees the half portion is good. Though stronger players can no longer give 'presents', where you force a draw on a weaker opponent by ensuring both players end up with the same amount of points. Is there amendment to chess that could work similarly? Nothing is coming to mind, but Chess is not my domain.

pmontra 2y ago
Actually komi in go solves the problem that black won nearly all the even games between strong players, except when white was an exceptionally strong player. Hence the original 4.5 points komi about 100 years ago. The half point is the part that turns a draw into a win for white, that starts playing after black. But it's not strictly necessary: we could state in the rules that white wins draws. Black started playing less conservatively and komi was soon adjusted to 5.5 points. It became 6.5 points at the turn of the century. It's 7.5 with Chinese and area rules. This variant of chess seems to me potentially unfair to the player that gets a bad starting position, one that loses most games or that could even be winning but only with a narrow and difficult path to find. It could work in a tournament if all players have to play all the initial configurations. In thnk
- kadoban 2y ago
  Just for fun: it is worth noting that there were/are other solutions to the "black wins" problem, usually in the form of playing multiple games and alternating colors, and stuff like kadoban formats where if you win multiple times you start getting pushed to get progressively larger handicaps and see if you can win then.
IvanChess744v3 2y ago
Chess 960 was done to address memorized openings and,to a certain degree,the issue of draws. But Chess960's castling mechanism is totally unintuitive. So, Chess 744 was born. The exact mechanic (rook moves to king and king swings behind it) from standard chess is used and all of chess 960's setups that had a rook and the king in a corner were removed. This website goes into detail. There is no better method, IMHO, of creating an intuitive chess variation that addresses this issue. It is very hard and unintuitive in Chess 960 to remember where to move your pieces to castle and whether or not it is even legal given the squares the king has to move through. https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game

IvanChess744 2y ago

So, this website introduces Chess 744 and addresses the confusing castling issues of Chess 960. Basically, we removed the Chess 960 setups with rook and king in a corner and then used the exact mechanic from standard chess. Rool moves to king (if not already adjacent) and then king swings behind the rook. Here is the site - along with a designated setup for each calendar day. https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game https://sites.google.com/view/chess-744/todays-744-game

toast0 2y ago
> the exact mechanic from standard chess The mechanic for standard chess is: (If Rook and King have not moved (and no funny business with pawns promoted to Rook), and none of the three spaces the King is involved with are attacked, and all the spaces between the King and the Rook are unoccupied) King moves two spaces, Rook moves to the space the king passed over. The order is important, at least in tournament play.
- scott_w 2y ago
  Small nitpick: you could replace “no funny business with pawns promoted to Rook” with “and are on their home squares” as there’s no way for a promoted pawn to get to a rook’s home square without moving ;)
  - toast0 2y ago
    Well... if you want to get into really funny business, white could promote to a black Rook on its home square (not valid with current FIDE rules, but older rule sets weren't always specific about the color of the piece promoted to). I don't think you should castle with that Rook, but maybe? I guess something about being on the squares since the beginning of the game.
    - scott_w 2y ago
      Yeah but now you’re following a path the rules don’t allow so it’s not really necessary :-p