5 ms·

Experimental Tauri Verso Integration

143 points by stareatgoats 2y ago

m00dy 2y ago
This is exactly the kind of innovation we love to see in the Tauri ecosystem! At Cycletop, we’re building an AI driven algorithmic trading platform, and our frontend runs on Tauri. The idea of using Verso instead of Wry? Super intriguing. Trading UIs demand snappy performance, and a rust powered rendering engine like Servo could mean faster DOM updates, better security, and lower resource usage I'm just curious, has anyone benchmarked Verso’s rendering speed vs. Wry? And how’s the webrtc support looking? Low latency comms are a must for us. Excited to see where this goes! [0]: https://cycletop.xyz https://cycletop.xyz
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Just FYI one of the developers is looking for a job where they can work full time on Tauri. If it's a big part of your world, it might be worth getting in touch.
usrusr 2y ago
Sounds weird at first glance, as in throwing away the key USP servo brings to the table relative to the "browser bundled" alternatives like Electron. But if it can (one day) serve as plan B to counter platform webview uncertainty, it might actually be a powerful boost to tauri adoption. Even when it is hardly ever used. Reminds me a little of the topic of range anxiety in BEV adoption: verso integration might be the hypothetical range extender trailer whose existence could help BEV adoption even if it was hardly ever used.
- usrusr 2y ago
  (OT, about hypothetical BEV rx trailers, moved to a self-replay to make it a little less bad): is this already a thing for caravan trailers? An oversized generator for off-grid camping paired with some battery for load smoothing and a downlink to the car so that it does not require the enormous capacity that would be needed to solve that once-per-year worst case outlier as a BEV. Might even be modular, like a pickup truck, a "power trailer" for adding both range and cargo bed to a car tailored for transporting humans.
- dqv 2y ago
  For me it's https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/3988 https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/3988 Even if it has to be bundled, having the equivalent performance accross OSes is big. Tauri is definitely piquing my interest again because of this.
- jonstewart 2y ago
  The potential demerit is: how compliant is Verso compared to Chromium and Safari?
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    Not compliant enough to browse the open web without experiencing glitches, but compliant enough for your own frontend code that you test against Verso/Servo. I imagine most users will continue using Tauri with native webviews. But if consistency between different webviews ever becomes an issue you now have the option to ship a Verso webview to have more cross-platform consistency
klabb3 2y ago
For those who don’t know, Tauri is a lightweight electron alternative which doesn’t bundle browser nor a nodejs-like runtime. To me piggybacking on the system webview is the main selling point. Tauri-made bundles usually clock in at a few MBs, compared to 100+ with electron.
- echelon 2y ago
  For me the biggest selling point is being able to write application backend logic in Rust. That's a big win.
- mshroyer 2y ago
  It's a great, easily-approachable framework too. I'd just recently picked it up for a pet project, and taking advantage today's powerful system webviews as UI frameworks seems like the obvious choice. Also check out Wails if you'd like something along these lines with Go substituted for Rust
shubhamjain 2y ago
I’m a bit confused. I thought the main selling point of Tauri was that it uses the OS’s native WebView to create lighter apps compared to something like Electron. So why would I want to bundle a Servo or Verso? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Tauri?
- detaro 2y ago
  For one thing, not all OSes have a "native WebView".
  - klabb3 2y ago
    In practice, it’s only Linux that is distro dependent out of the big ones, but most package managers have some WebKit gtk package to hook into afaik. In theory yes you could go outside Linux as well, like maybe bsd? Or which ones are you thinking of?
- dqv 2y ago
  Optionally bundling would help in situations where the OS's native webview has degraded performance https://github.com/tauri-apps/wry/issues/1064 https://github.com/tauri-apps/wry/issues/1064
  - Sytten 2y ago
    Yeah I opened this issue and still stand by the problems. We actually switched to electron since then because of the horrible performances on Linux.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  > I thought the main selling point of Tauri was that it uses the OS’s native WebView to create lighter apps compared to something like Electron It was a talking point for angry at clouds people. It was never a selling point, because nobody cares how big apps are today. For a regular user with a 256/512 GB drive, even if they had 50 electron apps 1 GB each, it would not matter in the grand scheme of things.
Fraterkes 2y ago
A while ago I saw someone mention that Tauri would soon also just include Chromium, because in practice using a native webview loses a lot of the ostensible portability of a browser-in-a-desktop app (they claimed native webviews can differ a lot between OS's). Maybe that was overly pessimistic
- mentalgear 2y ago
  > because in practice using a native webview loses a lot of the ostensible portability of a browser-in-a-desktop app (they claimed native webviews can differ a lot between OS's) OS Webview fragmentation was my concern from the beginning, but got pretty much shushed away by tauri proponents. Funny how after years they also came to the same conclusion that a webview running on win8 and one on linux do not necessarily render/behave the same, and the amount of bugfixes/normalisation one would have to include is just to vast. Still it might make sense if you exactly know the OS distribution of your user base.
  - madeofpalk 2y ago
    Is there something specific to the browser-in-a-desktop app domain that's different from normal frontend web development, where you have to support a variety of different browsers? How is it any different for Tauri?
    - pornel 2y ago
      On Linux you get WebKitGTK, which is more of a gamble than browser versions of Chromium or Gecko.
    - hiccuphippo 2y ago
      I guess it's "your choice" vs "the user's choice". When it's the user's choice they can't complain to you.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      The different bit is that if you decide to include an entire engine with your app, you don't need to support a variety of different browsers. Most people that go into browser-in-a-desktop app want to also provide a web app, so the difference is moot. But there are certainly a few people for whom it applies.
jonstewart 2y ago
I am by background a C++ developer, not a web developer, but Tauri has intrigued me as a cross-platform app framework. The things that have been frustrating are the documentation, the variety of options (pick a front end framework, pick a build tool), and the sense of being on your own once you get Hello, World! working. I wish there were more examples with using 1+ different Rust web service frameworks, how to manage state, and so on. It has the feel of an older-style open source project where the developers are in love with offering options rather than committing to a strong developer experience.
- ic3man5 2y ago
  It's because you aren't a web developer. I faced the same problems. Go make a web app with deno or node and you'll get the same feeling.
  - jonstewart 2y ago
    The allure for me of Tauri is the combination of creating simple portable apps, maybe one day being able to get a frontend JS developer to improve UI/UX, using Rust on the backend (with the ability to bundle in other native libraries), and leaning more heavily on cargo than on the godawfulness of JS-flavor-of-the-minute build tool. I can vibe-code up some basic UI but it all feels a bit precarious.
- andyferris 2y ago
  It's possible I don't know what I'm talking about, but I believe Dioxus is also targetting cross-platform app development and might be a reasonable fit for you. Here the frontend is written in Rust in their provided UI framework (designed with concepts from the web DOM and learnings from existing web frameworks) and it might be a more familiar approach to a C++ dev who has used Qt or whatever before. I understand it also has experimental support (possibly still under development?) for a servo/verso render engine, which is why I mention it.
synergy20 2y ago
https://webui.me/ https://webui.me/ is a different approach
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  This looks far superior or what am I missing?
  - synergy20 2y ago
    it's a hidden gem in my opinion, I just started using it to build projects
zachrip 2y ago
Does verso/servo offer a way to get a raw framebuffer? I'm working on a project where I am currently using cef but I would love to go full rust.
dcow 2y ago
I wonder if this will result in a reconsideration of the runtime abstraction boundary itself. Right now the runtime umbrella also includes the way you build native menus and work with the system tray. So if you wanted to swap out runtimes, there's a fair chance it isn't trivial because you have Menu<Wry> in various places. The other option is to make all your code generic on runtime like tauri's but that's confusing and cumbersome in my experience because all your code has to become generic with constraints that are not documented or explained anywhere (essentially library implementation details). Would be nice to see a "web render runtime" and a separate "native UI runtime", or see the menu system abstraction revamped.
xrd 2y ago
Is there a mobile story for Tauri? Can you port the rust backend to android or iOS? Since this uses the system web view does this make mobile possible?
- xrd 2y ago
  Apparently, yes, there is movement here: https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions?discussions_q=is%3Aopen+android https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions?discussions_...

143 points by stareatgoats 2y ago

This is exactly the kind of innovation we love to see in the Tauri ecosystem! At Cycletop, we’re building an AI driven algorithmic trading platform, and our frontend runs on Tauri. The idea of using Verso instead of Wry? Super intriguing. Trading UIs demand snappy performance, and a rust powered rendering engine like Servo could mean faster DOM updates, better security, and lower resource usage I'm just curious, has anyone benchmarked Verso’s rendering speed vs. Wry? And how’s the webrtc support looking? Low latency comms are a must for us. Excited to see where this goes! [0]: https://cycletop.xyz https://cycletop.xyz

robertlagrant 2y ago
Just FYI one of the developers is looking for a job where they can work full time on Tauri. If it's a big part of your world, it might be worth getting in touch.

usrusr 2y ago

Sounds weird at first glance, as in throwing away the key USP servo brings to the table relative to the "browser bundled" alternatives like Electron. But if it can (one day) serve as plan B to counter platform webview uncertainty, it might actually be a powerful boost to tauri adoption. Even when it is hardly ever used. Reminds me a little of the topic of range anxiety in BEV adoption: verso integration might be the hypothetical range extender trailer whose existence could help BEV adoption even if it was hardly ever used.

usrusr 2y ago
(OT, about hypothetical BEV rx trailers, moved to a self-replay to make it a little less bad): is this already a thing for caravan trailers? An oversized generator for off-grid camping paired with some battery for load smoothing and a downlink to the car so that it does not require the enormous capacity that would be needed to solve that once-per-year worst case outlier as a BEV. Might even be modular, like a pickup truck, a "power trailer" for adding both range and cargo bed to a car tailored for transporting humans.
dqv 2y ago
For me it's https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/3988 https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/3988 Even if it has to be bundled, having the equivalent performance accross OSes is big. Tauri is definitely piquing my interest again because of this.
jonstewart 2y ago
The potential demerit is: how compliant is Verso compared to Chromium and Safari?
- wongarsu 2y ago
  Not compliant enough to browse the open web without experiencing glitches, but compliant enough for your own frontend code that you test against Verso/Servo. I imagine most users will continue using Tauri with native webviews. But if consistency between different webviews ever becomes an issue you now have the option to ship a Verso webview to have more cross-platform consistency

klabb3 2y ago

For those who don’t know, Tauri is a lightweight electron alternative which doesn’t bundle browser nor a nodejs-like runtime. To me piggybacking on the system webview is the main selling point. Tauri-made bundles usually clock in at a few MBs, compared to 100+ with electron.

echelon 2y ago
For me the biggest selling point is being able to write application backend logic in Rust. That's a big win.
mshroyer 2y ago
It's a great, easily-approachable framework too. I'd just recently picked it up for a pet project, and taking advantage today's powerful system webviews as UI frameworks seems like the obvious choice. Also check out Wails if you'd like something along these lines with Go substituted for Rust

shubhamjain 2y ago

I’m a bit confused. I thought the main selling point of Tauri was that it uses the OS’s native WebView to create lighter apps compared to something like Electron. So why would I want to bundle a Servo or Verso? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Tauri?

detaro 2y ago
For one thing, not all OSes have a "native WebView".
- klabb3 2y ago
  In practice, it’s only Linux that is distro dependent out of the big ones, but most package managers have some WebKit gtk package to hook into afaik. In theory yes you could go outside Linux as well, like maybe bsd? Or which ones are you thinking of?
dqv 2y ago
Optionally bundling would help in situations where the OS's native webview has degraded performance https://github.com/tauri-apps/wry/issues/1064 https://github.com/tauri-apps/wry/issues/1064
- Sytten 2y ago
  Yeah I opened this issue and still stand by the problems. We actually switched to electron since then because of the horrible performances on Linux.
dist-epoch 2y ago
> I thought the main selling point of Tauri was that it uses the OS’s native WebView to create lighter apps compared to something like Electron It was a talking point for angry at clouds people. It was never a selling point, because nobody cares how big apps are today. For a regular user with a 256/512 GB drive, even if they had 50 electron apps 1 GB each, it would not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Fraterkes 2y ago

A while ago I saw someone mention that Tauri would soon also just include Chromium, because in practice using a native webview loses a lot of the ostensible portability of a browser-in-a-desktop app (they claimed native webviews can differ a lot between OS's). Maybe that was overly pessimistic

mentalgear 2y ago
> because in practice using a native webview loses a lot of the ostensible portability of a browser-in-a-desktop app (they claimed native webviews can differ a lot between OS's) OS Webview fragmentation was my concern from the beginning, but got pretty much shushed away by tauri proponents. Funny how after years they also came to the same conclusion that a webview running on win8 and one on linux do not necessarily render/behave the same, and the amount of bugfixes/normalisation one would have to include is just to vast. Still it might make sense if you exactly know the OS distribution of your user base.
- madeofpalk 2y ago
  Is there something specific to the browser-in-a-desktop app domain that's different from normal frontend web development, where you have to support a variety of different browsers? How is it any different for Tauri?
  - pornel 2y ago
    On Linux you get WebKitGTK, which is more of a gamble than browser versions of Chromium or Gecko.
  - hiccuphippo 2y ago
    I guess it's "your choice" vs "the user's choice". When it's the user's choice they can't complain to you.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    The different bit is that if you decide to include an entire engine with your app, you don't need to support a variety of different browsers. Most people that go into browser-in-a-desktop app want to also provide a web app, so the difference is moot. But there are certainly a few people for whom it applies.

jonstewart 2y ago

I am by background a C++ developer, not a web developer, but Tauri has intrigued me as a cross-platform app framework. The things that have been frustrating are the documentation, the variety of options (pick a front end framework, pick a build tool), and the sense of being on your own once you get Hello, World! working. I wish there were more examples with using 1+ different Rust web service frameworks, how to manage state, and so on. It has the feel of an older-style open source project where the developers are in love with offering options rather than committing to a strong developer experience.

ic3man5 2y ago
It's because you aren't a web developer. I faced the same problems. Go make a web app with deno or node and you'll get the same feeling.
- jonstewart 2y ago
  The allure for me of Tauri is the combination of creating simple portable apps, maybe one day being able to get a frontend JS developer to improve UI/UX, using Rust on the backend (with the ability to bundle in other native libraries), and leaning more heavily on cargo than on the godawfulness of JS-flavor-of-the-minute build tool. I can vibe-code up some basic UI but it all feels a bit precarious.
andyferris 2y ago
It's possible I don't know what I'm talking about, but I believe Dioxus is also targetting cross-platform app development and might be a reasonable fit for you. Here the frontend is written in Rust in their provided UI framework (designed with concepts from the web DOM and learnings from existing web frameworks) and it might be a more familiar approach to a C++ dev who has used Qt or whatever before. I understand it also has experimental support (possibly still under development?) for a servo/verso render engine, which is why I mention it.

synergy20 2y ago

https://webui.me/ https://webui.me/ is a different approach

emptysongglass 2y ago
This looks far superior or what am I missing?
- synergy20 2y ago
  it's a hidden gem in my opinion, I just started using it to build projects

zachrip 2y ago

Does verso/servo offer a way to get a raw framebuffer? I'm working on a project where I am currently using cef but I would love to go full rust.

dcow 2y ago

I wonder if this will result in a reconsideration of the runtime abstraction boundary itself. Right now the runtime umbrella also includes the way you build native menus and work with the system tray. So if you wanted to swap out runtimes, there's a fair chance it isn't trivial because you have Menu<Wry> in various places. The other option is to make all your code generic on runtime like tauri's but that's confusing and cumbersome in my experience because all your code has to become generic with constraints that are not documented or explained anywhere (essentially library implementation details). Would be nice to see a "web render runtime" and a separate "native UI runtime", or see the menu system abstraction revamped.

xrd 2y ago

Is there a mobile story for Tauri? Can you port the rust backend to android or iOS? Since this uses the system web view does this make mobile possible?

xrd 2y ago
Apparently, yes, there is movement here: https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions?discussions_q=is%3Aopen+android https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions?discussions_...