4 ms·

It seems that the examples given in the article are about non-US citizens caught in a tangle of sorts but some physicists are wanting to apply it to themselves

It seems that the examples given in the article are about non-US citizens caught in a tangle of sorts but some physicists are wanting to apply it to themselves as a whole.

SapporoChris 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came ""First They Came" (German: Als sie kamen lit. 'When they came', or Habe ich geschwiegen lit. 'I did not speak out'), is the poetic form of a 1946 post-war confessional prose piece by the German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984). It is about the silent complicity of German intellectuals and clergy following the Nazis' rise to power and subsequent incremental purging of their chosen targets. Many variations and adaptations in the spirit of the original have been published in the English language. " When you see things happening to those outside your circle you might feel safe, but many times you are just further down the list and your time will come.
- brianmurphy 2y ago
  https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/ https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/log... "A slippery slope fallacy occurs when someone claims that a position or decision will lead to a series of unintended negative consequences. These negative consequences are often bad and/or increasingly outlandish. The person using the slippery slope fallacy takes these consequences as a certainty and does not analyze the logic of their own position. A slippery slope fallacy can be used as a deflection to avoid discussing the merits of a position, shifting the field of debate."
  - einarfd 2y ago
    So where is the slippery slope in the Martin Niemöller poem? The transgression against the groups does not change, it is just repeated on different "troublesome" out groups. I guess you can argue that the last line, where the I of the text is taken, is the slippery slope. But that seems a bit contrived. My reading of it is that it is an admonishing against accepting injustice against groups that you yourself is not part of, and that if you do not speak up. Then who will speak up for you, if you need it.
  - fatbird 2y ago
    I'm in awe of what a shitty response this is to Niemoller's poem. Like, new depths of twat-itude have been explored here. Congratulations winner.
shadowpho 2y ago
If they break the laws towards green card holders they’ll happily break the law for citizens
epistasis 2y ago
As they well should. Science has been completely destroyed through grant revocation at Colombia on the pretense of unconnected protests about Israel and Palestine. There is no targeting based on who did what, just being in the same institution is enough. And many of these physicists have workers from other countries doing research for them. Even if they are US citizens, their thought crimes will have severe problems for those employees.
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  "Science has been completely destroyed" Really? Completely?
  - pmags 2y ago
    Would you prefer the phrasing "US scientific and public health infrastructure has been subjected to capricious changes that will effect almost all aspects of research and health care for a decade or more"? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00954-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00954-y https://www.science.org/content/article/trump-plan-overhauling-health-agencies-will-cut-10-000-positions https://www.science.org/content/article/trump-plan-overhauli... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00780-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00780-2 https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/03/report-us-scientists-lost-3-billion-in-nih-grants-since-trump-took-office/ https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/03/report-us-scientists-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/03/28/trump-administration-science-research-cuts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/03/28/trump-adm... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2025/03/trump-america-infectious-disease/682138/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2025/03/trump-ame... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00525-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00525-1
    - WillPostForFood 2y ago
      Is there a fluoride article in that barrage of links?
      - 2y ago
tdeck 2y ago
It's a concept called solidarity. We are going to need more of it if any of our institutions will survive this.
wkat4242 2y ago
It even happened to US citizens like a NASA employee who would not give access to his devices because they contained NDA info (that he legitimately had access to). He was detained. But let through after things were cleared up.
- Kim_Bruning 2y ago
  Do you recall what source that was? Was this a recent incident (this year) or was this an older incident, I recall an older case where things got a bit spicy.
whatshisface 2y ago
As you could say, the walls of the city are the walls of my home.
Avshalom 2y ago
If there is no due process for non-citizens then there is no due process for citizens.

It seems that the examples given in the article are about non-US citizens caught in a tangle of sorts but some physicists are wanting to apply it to themselves as a whole.

SapporoChris 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came ""First They Came" (German: Als sie kamen lit. 'When they came', or Habe ich geschwiegen lit. 'I did not speak out'), is the poetic form of a 1946 post-war confessional prose piece by the German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984). It is about the silent complicity of German intellectuals and clergy following the Nazis' rise to power and subsequent incremental purging of their chosen targets. Many variations and adaptations in the spirit of the original have been published in the English language. " When you see things happening to those outside your circle you might feel safe, but many times you are just further down the list and your time will come.

brianmurphy 2y ago
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/ https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/log... "A slippery slope fallacy occurs when someone claims that a position or decision will lead to a series of unintended negative consequences. These negative consequences are often bad and/or increasingly outlandish. The person using the slippery slope fallacy takes these consequences as a certainty and does not analyze the logic of their own position. A slippery slope fallacy can be used as a deflection to avoid discussing the merits of a position, shifting the field of debate."
- einarfd 2y ago
  So where is the slippery slope in the Martin Niemöller poem? The transgression against the groups does not change, it is just repeated on different "troublesome" out groups. I guess you can argue that the last line, where the I of the text is taken, is the slippery slope. But that seems a bit contrived. My reading of it is that it is an admonishing against accepting injustice against groups that you yourself is not part of, and that if you do not speak up. Then who will speak up for you, if you need it.
- fatbird 2y ago
  I'm in awe of what a shitty response this is to Niemoller's poem. Like, new depths of twat-itude have been explored here. Congratulations winner.

shadowpho 2y ago

If they break the laws towards green card holders they’ll happily break the law for citizens

epistasis 2y ago

As they well should. Science has been completely destroyed through grant revocation at Colombia on the pretense of unconnected protests about Israel and Palestine. There is no targeting based on who did what, just being in the same institution is enough. And many of these physicists have workers from other countries doing research for them. Even if they are US citizens, their thought crimes will have severe problems for those employees.

WillPostForFood 2y ago
"Science has been completely destroyed" Really? Completely?
- pmags 2y ago
  Would you prefer the phrasing "US scientific and public health infrastructure has been subjected to capricious changes that will effect almost all aspects of research and health care for a decade or more"? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00954-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00954-y https://www.science.org/content/article/trump-plan-overhauling-health-agencies-will-cut-10-000-positions https://www.science.org/content/article/trump-plan-overhauli... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00780-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00780-2 https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/03/report-us-scientists-lost-3-billion-in-nih-grants-since-trump-took-office/ https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/03/report-us-scientists-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/03/28/trump-administration-science-research-cuts/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/03/28/trump-adm... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2025/03/trump-america-infectious-disease/682138/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2025/03/trump-ame... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00525-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00525-1
  - WillPostForFood 2y ago
    Is there a fluoride article in that barrage of links?
    - 2y ago

tdeck 2y ago

It's a concept called solidarity. We are going to need more of it if any of our institutions will survive this.

wkat4242 2y ago

It even happened to US citizens like a NASA employee who would not give access to his devices because they contained NDA info (that he legitimately had access to). He was detained. But let through after things were cleared up.

Kim_Bruning 2y ago
Do you recall what source that was? Was this a recent incident (this year) or was this an older incident, I recall an older case where things got a bit spicy.

whatshisface 2y ago

As you could say, the walls of the city are the walls of my home.

Avshalom 2y ago

If there is no due process for non-citizens then there is no due process for citizens.