6 ms·

Steve Klabnik talked about how he and rest of the early Rust team recognised the importance of tools like this on a recent Oxide and Friends episode[0], it's we

Steve Klabnik talked about how he and rest of the early Rust team recognised the importance of tools like this on a recent Oxide and Friends episode[0], it's well worth a listen. I think this is a positive sign for Swift and Apple's continued push to increase it's viability as a general purposes language outside of Apple's ecosystems. It's still early, but directionally it's promising. 0: https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/a-happy-day-for-rust https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/a-happy-day...

ein0p 2y ago
I know a number of people at Apple, some of them pretty high up. The long and short of it is, Apple doesn't really give a shit about the world outside its ecosystem. It will interoperate when it has to (e.g. wifi, bluetooth, web standards) but if an effort does not help with selling Apple hardware, that effort will not get headcount or funding. So whatever multiplatform efforts you are seeing happen in spite of, not thanks to, Apple's stance.
- K0nserv 2y ago
  I don't doubt that, but someone is definitely trying. For example they moved Swift out of the Apple GitHub org and the announcement blog post[0] calls out Swift's use outside Apple's ecosystems. Their blog archives has more posts that I read as a focus on improving Swift outside the Apple ecosystem, some examples: * Updating the Visual Studio Code extension for Swift[1] * Introducing Oblivious HTTP support in Swift[2] * How Swift's server support powers Things Cloud[3] I can see arguments for how wider adoption of Swift outside of Apple, and especially in the server ecosystem, helps Apple. In particular, lots of apps are being written using React Native and Flutter and at least one hurdle there is that Swift lacks developer mindshare. 0: https://www.swift.org/blog/swiftlang-github/ https://www.swift.org/blog/swiftlang-github/ 1: https://www.swift.org/blog/the-next-chapter-in-swift-build-technologies/ https://www.swift.org/blog/the-next-chapter-in-swift-build-t... 2: https://www.swift.org/blog/introducing-swift-nio-oblivious-http/ https://www.swift.org/blog/introducing-swift-nio-oblivious-h... 3: https://www.swift.org/blog/how-swifts-server-support-powers-things-cloud/ https://www.swift.org/blog/how-swifts-server-support-powers-...
  - yyyk 2y ago
    >3:... Our Swift server codebase has around 30,000 lines of code. It produces a binary of 60 MB, and builds in ten minutes. Ten minutes isn't very good for 30K lines.
    - e28eta 2y ago
      My guess is that 30k LOC is the 1st party code, and there’s probably a bunch of 3rd party dependencies that are also compiled as part of that. But maybe I’m wrong
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    It’s nice that a Swift LSP exists, is supported by the company behind the language, and is actively being worked on, because that makes it much more feasible to do things like build alternative IDEs. Contrast this to Kotlin, which doesn’t have an LSP due to conflicts of interest with Jetbrains’ business. You either use a Jetbrains IDE or you don’t write Kotlin.
    - theli0nheart 2y ago
      What about this? https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server
      - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
        It’s wholly a community effort and not supported by Jetbrains, which means it will always be at a disadvantage. Even development on it continues, it’ll always be a few steps behind the current version of Kotlin and will probably be missing a number of things compared to the autocomplete in Jetbrains IDEs. It’s also built on the internal APIs of the Kotlin compiler, which are subject to change at any time. If Jetbrains shifts those around too dramatically it could break the LSP beyond the point that anybody is willing to repair it. For corporate-developed languages first party LSPs are important.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
- no_wizard 2y ago
  More or less this, with some able to produce a few community nuggets, but it will take another vendor (and IBM tried at some point) to push Swift into actuality as a true cross platform language. In another world, maybe instead of Java / Kotlin Google would have pivoted onto Swift as a language for mobile, closing the gap between the platforms a bit.
- mdhb 2y ago
  Apple so very clearly does not give a shit about anything outside of the Apple ecosystem, it’s kind of a core part of their company DNA at this point. I can’t ever see Swift on the server or in other contexts catching on and honestly just with the way platforms as a whole are developing I can’t see Swift surviving as a mainstream language beyond the next 5 years. Its value proposition is already on shaky grounds and is actively getting worse with time the moment you look outside Apple’s walled garden. Unless they are able to keep that lock in at the same level moving forward it’s just got very little going for it. I think something like 1/3 apps in the App Store are ALREADY written in Dart / Flutter which is probably even a nicer language from a developer experience point of view, with much much better tooling and documentation, that runs everywhere and has comparable performance.
  - freeone3000 2y ago
    That’s honestly depressing. I used flutter because I couldn’t figure out XCode, and am continually lamenting the poor type-checking, static analysis, and mediocre performance… how is swift worse?
    - mdhb 2y ago
      Darts type system and static analysis are genuinely great… I have no idea what you’re talking about. Flutter does 120fps with ease I’m also confused what you’re talking about there too
      - freeone3000 2y ago
        I was asking the flutter app to act as a bluetooth mesh hub and it started dropping packets when the (external) simulator got to 5000 devices, when the same algorithm in C++ running on a pi 2020 (which is much weaker than the A17!) managed the full 16000 theoretically possible. The profiler (which… opened in a web browser?) tracked it back to most of the time being spent in averaging and rolling encryption, it wasn’t bluetooth-locked. Developing was also frustrating, with Android Studio simply being unable to signal compilation errors, and many issues only showing up on one phone or another. The zeroconf libraries have different methods, but this could not be detected until runtime on either device. The device I wasn’t actively testing on frequently had some regression in sensors, bluetooth, or even UI. It did display an animation OK, so no fault there I suppose.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  You mean for profit companies only do things that are in their self interest? I am shock!
  - afiori 2y ago
    The complaint is that a lot of companies have a very shallow and short term sense of self-interest as if they were starved for cash and in a non-positive sum game
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      You don’t survive in the tech industry for 50 years and be the most valuable company for the last 15 by thinking short term. This isn’t unique to Apple. Microsoft has been around for 50 years and been one of the five most valuable companies since 2000. Amazon has been around for 30.
      - afiori 2y ago
        The strategies to get to the top and those to stay there can be very different. Still you are right, thinking more about what I was trying to say I agree that my comment was off. I think that what I was trying to criticize was better described as a myopic focus on a few quantifiable metric, often lacking an olistic approach
zozbot234 2y ago
What I really want to know: If Rust developers are 'Rustaceans' and Golang developers are 'Gophers', are Swift developers 'Swifties'?
- isodev 2y ago
  Some of us are also Swifties :)
- DeepYogurt 2y ago
  Logic checks out
steveklabnik 2y ago
Glad you enjoyed! And yeah, it’s good to see this for Swift.
- appleaday1 2y ago
  whats your thoughts on uv https://github.com/astral-sh/uv https://github.com/astral-sh/uv I am blown away, installing python packages used to take so long now I dont even think about it, really made Python more viable.
  - steveklabnik 2y ago
    It seems quite good!

ein0p 2y ago

I know a number of people at Apple, some of them pretty high up. The long and short of it is, Apple doesn't really give a shit about the world outside its ecosystem. It will interoperate when it has to (e.g. wifi, bluetooth, web standards) but if an effort does not help with selling Apple hardware, that effort will not get headcount or funding. So whatever multiplatform efforts you are seeing happen in spite of, not thanks to, Apple's stance.

K0nserv 2y ago
I don't doubt that, but someone is definitely trying. For example they moved Swift out of the Apple GitHub org and the announcement blog post[0] calls out Swift's use outside Apple's ecosystems. Their blog archives has more posts that I read as a focus on improving Swift outside the Apple ecosystem, some examples: * Updating the Visual Studio Code extension for Swift[1] * Introducing Oblivious HTTP support in Swift[2] * How Swift's server support powers Things Cloud[3] I can see arguments for how wider adoption of Swift outside of Apple, and especially in the server ecosystem, helps Apple. In particular, lots of apps are being written using React Native and Flutter and at least one hurdle there is that Swift lacks developer mindshare. 0: https://www.swift.org/blog/swiftlang-github/ https://www.swift.org/blog/swiftlang-github/ 1: https://www.swift.org/blog/the-next-chapter-in-swift-build-technologies/ https://www.swift.org/blog/the-next-chapter-in-swift-build-t... 2: https://www.swift.org/blog/introducing-swift-nio-oblivious-http/ https://www.swift.org/blog/introducing-swift-nio-oblivious-h... 3: https://www.swift.org/blog/how-swifts-server-support-powers-things-cloud/ https://www.swift.org/blog/how-swifts-server-support-powers-...
- yyyk 2y ago
  >3:... Our Swift server codebase has around 30,000 lines of code. It produces a binary of 60 MB, and builds in ten minutes. Ten minutes isn't very good for 30K lines.
  - e28eta 2y ago
    My guess is that 30k LOC is the 1st party code, and there’s probably a bunch of 3rd party dependencies that are also compiled as part of that. But maybe I’m wrong
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  It’s nice that a Swift LSP exists, is supported by the company behind the language, and is actively being worked on, because that makes it much more feasible to do things like build alternative IDEs. Contrast this to Kotlin, which doesn’t have an LSP due to conflicts of interest with Jetbrains’ business. You either use a Jetbrains IDE or you don’t write Kotlin.
  - theli0nheart 2y ago
    What about this? https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server https://github.com/fwcd/kotlin-language-server
    - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      It’s wholly a community effort and not supported by Jetbrains, which means it will always be at a disadvantage. Even development on it continues, it’ll always be a few steps behind the current version of Kotlin and will probably be missing a number of things compared to the autocomplete in Jetbrains IDEs. It’s also built on the internal APIs of the Kotlin compiler, which are subject to change at any time. If Jetbrains shifts those around too dramatically it could break the LSP beyond the point that anybody is willing to repair it. For corporate-developed languages first party LSPs are important.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
no_wizard 2y ago
More or less this, with some able to produce a few community nuggets, but it will take another vendor (and IBM tried at some point) to push Swift into actuality as a true cross platform language. In another world, maybe instead of Java / Kotlin Google would have pivoted onto Swift as a language for mobile, closing the gap between the platforms a bit.
mdhb 2y ago
Apple so very clearly does not give a shit about anything outside of the Apple ecosystem, it’s kind of a core part of their company DNA at this point. I can’t ever see Swift on the server or in other contexts catching on and honestly just with the way platforms as a whole are developing I can’t see Swift surviving as a mainstream language beyond the next 5 years. Its value proposition is already on shaky grounds and is actively getting worse with time the moment you look outside Apple’s walled garden. Unless they are able to keep that lock in at the same level moving forward it’s just got very little going for it. I think something like 1/3 apps in the App Store are ALREADY written in Dart / Flutter which is probably even a nicer language from a developer experience point of view, with much much better tooling and documentation, that runs everywhere and has comparable performance.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  That’s honestly depressing. I used flutter because I couldn’t figure out XCode, and am continually lamenting the poor type-checking, static analysis, and mediocre performance… how is swift worse?
  - mdhb 2y ago
    Darts type system and static analysis are genuinely great… I have no idea what you’re talking about. Flutter does 120fps with ease I’m also confused what you’re talking about there too
    - freeone3000 2y ago
      I was asking the flutter app to act as a bluetooth mesh hub and it started dropping packets when the (external) simulator got to 5000 devices, when the same algorithm in C++ running on a pi 2020 (which is much weaker than the A17!) managed the full 16000 theoretically possible. The profiler (which… opened in a web browser?) tracked it back to most of the time being spent in averaging and rolling encryption, it wasn’t bluetooth-locked. Developing was also frustrating, with Android Studio simply being unable to signal compilation errors, and many issues only showing up on one phone or another. The zeroconf libraries have different methods, but this could not be detected until runtime on either device. The device I wasn’t actively testing on frequently had some regression in sensors, bluetooth, or even UI. It did display an animation OK, so no fault there I suppose.
scarface_74 2y ago
You mean for profit companies only do things that are in their self interest? I am shock!
- afiori 2y ago
  The complaint is that a lot of companies have a very shallow and short term sense of self-interest as if they were starved for cash and in a non-positive sum game
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    You don’t survive in the tech industry for 50 years and be the most valuable company for the last 15 by thinking short term. This isn’t unique to Apple. Microsoft has been around for 50 years and been one of the five most valuable companies since 2000. Amazon has been around for 30.
    - afiori 2y ago
      The strategies to get to the top and those to stay there can be very different. Still you are right, thinking more about what I was trying to say I agree that my comment was off. I think that what I was trying to criticize was better described as a myopic focus on a few quantifiable metric, often lacking an olistic approach

zozbot234 2y ago

What I really want to know: If Rust developers are 'Rustaceans' and Golang developers are 'Gophers', are Swift developers 'Swifties'?

isodev 2y ago
Some of us are also Swifties :)
DeepYogurt 2y ago
Logic checks out

steveklabnik 2y ago

Glad you enjoyed! And yeah, it’s good to see this for Swift.

appleaday1 2y ago
whats your thoughts on uv https://github.com/astral-sh/uv https://github.com/astral-sh/uv I am blown away, installing python packages used to take so long now I dont even think about it, really made Python more viable.
- steveklabnik 2y ago
  It seems quite good!