7 ms·

My general takes (as someone who also has a somewhat popular blog) is that The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text. I often put

• sunk1st 2y ago
  Wouldn’t that be a regular pyramid? In what sense is it inverted?
  • Galanwe 2y ago
    That seems intuitive to me, but I guess it depends how you picture it. I think of a pyramid from the ground up, so a dense base followed by a thinner top. A inverted pyramid would be thin first then dense and large. When reading though, you go from top to bottom, so if you're more visual instead of time based, you may see it the other way around.
  • marginalia_nu 2y ago
    It's not my name for it, but an established term for the style, so I wouldn't know. I would note that most pyramid metaphors tend to be kind of lacking. Test pyramid, food pyramid, etc.
  • jasode 2y ago
    > In what sense is it inverted? The triangle is upside down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid_(journalism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid_(journalism)
    • azornathogron 2y ago
      It's funny because from that diagram I really don't see any particular relationship between the shape and its content. You could draw a regular pyramid with three segments and write the same labels on it and it would make just as much sense to me. If anything a regular pyramid makes more sense to me: you want the smallest/narrowest useful description at the top and then you gradually expand on it as you go down, providing more (wider) context and detail for the key information. Edit: Of course, it's a widely used term and good to understand in that context; the Wikipedia link is useful.
      • marginalia_nu 2y ago
        Yeah, this seems to be true for most pyramid models. It's really annoying when you start to spot it.
      • wonger_ 2y ago
        I think it's about laying foundations at the beginning, not the length of the text at the beginning. The first sentence/paragraph is the foundation of everything beneath it, whereas the base of a normal pyramid is the foundation of everything above it.
      • kqr 2y ago
        > I really don't see any particular relationship between the shape and its content. This is often the case with geometric metaphors. They catch on easily, but they rarely make a lot of sense on closer scrutiny.
  • tantalor 2y ago
    It's a bad metaphor. In the "inverted pyramid" the most important information (which should come first) is represented by the base, which is the biggest part of the pyramid and holds up the rest of the pyramid. In a sense, it is the foundation, so you have to "get it right". The analogy is "base = big = foundational = important" Personally I think that's confusing, because you just as easily say the tip of the pyramid should represent the most important information, which should be conveyed concisely and without extraneous detail or background. In that case the analogy would be, "tip = concise = main point = important"
    • irrational 2y ago
      That is confusing. In my mind, the tip of the pyramid is the smallest part of the pyramid, just like the brief overview at the beginning of the post is the smallest part. The base of the pyramid is the biggest part of they pyramid, so that is the bulk of the post where it goes into detail.
  • kens 2y ago
    The "inverted pyramid" first described a visual pyramid, not a conceptual pyramid. I found an 1887 article in Time magazine on journalism, describing the inverted pyramid structure. Specifically, the top of a newspaper article (the display, summarizing the article) consisted of not just the title, but multiple lines of different sizes. First, the title in large capitals. Next, a line of small capitals. Finally, three, four, or more rows of smaller type arranged in the form of an inverted pyramid. That is, the lines in the heading got progressively shorter, making a visual inverted pyramid, with the most important information first. Later, the "inverted pyramid" term described the structure of the entire article with the most important parts first, but the metaphor does seem backward. https://books.google.com/books?id=rNaEw8DwatwC&pg=PA154&dq=%22inverted+pyramid%22&hl=en&newbks=1#v=onepage&q=%22inverted%20pyramid%22%20journalism&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=rNaEw8DwatwC&pg=PA154&dq=%...
• mtlynch 2y ago
  Thanks for reading, Viktor! >I'm less bullish on images, unless they are profoundly relevant to the text. Illustrations for the sake of having illustrations are no bueno in my opinion. You want to reduce distractions and visual noise. I'll respectfully disagree on this one. You can overdo images, but I think readers find a wall of text intimidating and visually too boring, but this is a matter of taste. >Images should above all never be funny. I strongly disagree with this. It's like saying a technical blog post should never have jokes. Why should an image never be funny? I think you absolutely can mix humor and useful technical insights. xkcd is probably the best example, but there are lots of authors that complement their writing with humor, both in images and in text.
  • marginalia_nu 2y ago
    I think you can be funny, but only in posts that are made to be funny. xkcd is primarily intended as comedy and that's fine. Mixing humor into serious communication comes at the expense of authenticity. It's difficult to know what an author really means when they mix attempts at humor into the writing (and this is often deliberate, if someone makes a particularly spicy political remark, it's usually in the form of a joke, in order to shield from potential backlash). Overall it's a style of writing that feels sophomoric and insecure, as though the message itself isn't enough so there's a need to crack jokes to compensate. This successfully distracts from the message you're trying to convey, ... at the expense of clarity.
    • lapcat 2y ago
      > Mixing humor into serious communication comes at the expense of authenticity. Only if you're authentically humorless. ;-)
      • marginalia_nu 2y ago
        I wouldn't say never under any circumstance to do this, a pun or a joke occasionally creeps into my posts as well, though I feel this is definitely a less-is-more thing. You sometimes find texts where you get the feeling the author almost expects a sitcom laugh track over the post, and funnies are crammed into every available crevice.
• mvkel 2y ago
  This works for blog posts, certainly. But it falls apart if you're doing anything even slightly long form, or have multiple points to make. It's also why LinkedIn posts all sound the same. "It seemed like any other Monday. Little did I know, it was going to be the day that changed my life forever..." "Marketing isn't about getting the most traffic. It's about converting the most traffic. A thread:"
  • yesfitz 2y ago
    Why do you think the inverted pyramid doesn't work for longer form? If you have multiple points that don't both support a larger point, they should probably be split into two separate essays. Your first example could be the start of an inverted pyramid if the thesis of the post is how the Monday was just like any other. But the next sentence dashes that notion. The second example could be an example if it quickly follows up with the ways to convert traffic, but better to lead with the novel way(s) to convert traffic, then follow up with why conversion is more important than generation.
    • PeterFBell 2y ago
      To :+1: this, even if it's a book - there is a central thesis - a headline and a sentence that tells you whether you want to read more. "Your pet could save your life" - The six surprising reasons that people with pets live longer than others. Then each chapter has the same: "Getting in touch" - why stroking your cat soothes your body. Etc You may even have sections within the chapters and each can follow the same format. Thousands of years ago it was enough just to write down stuff you've learned, call it "Meditations" and hope people would still be reading it in the distant future. Now if it's just "stuff I've learned about coding" or "things that make me happy" you're going to need an extremely strong hook to tie that together and build an audience. So start with a single thesis and decompose from there. Inverted pyramids all the way down :)
      • mvkel 2y ago
        This sounds like a business book on cats. Useful, yes, but not something I'd read for its writing value.
• barbazoo 2y ago
  I really like that concept and I’ve never heard of it. Makes me want to pay attention if people do that outside of tech. > Images should above all never be funny :)
  • ramon156 2y ago
    I think a better term is "witty". For example, fasterthanlime's blog executes the funny part well, but it never tries to be witty.
• 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Also known as BLUF: bottom line up front.
  • teddyh 2y ago
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BLUF_(communication)&oldid=1273505660 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BLUF_(communicati...>
• gusmally 2y ago
  aka Barbara Minto's Pyramid Principle: https://www.mckinsey.com/alumni/news-and-events/global-news/alumni-news/barbara-minto-mece-i-invented-it-so-i-get-to-say-how-to-pronounce-it https://www.mckinsey.com/alumni/news-and-events/global-news/...
  • kens 2y ago
    Barbara Minto's Pyramid Principle is different. She invented that in 1985. The journalism "inverted pyramid" is much older, going back to the 1800s.
• pansa2 2y ago
  > The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text. Do you find this conflicts with "offering an interesting story that resonates with the reader"? For example: Using inverted pyramid to describe a problem and my solution, I'd structure my writing as "here's a problem, I found this solution, using this method". Whereas a story would usually be told in chronological order: "here's a problem, I tried these methods, and came to this solution". Or is it possible to both have your cake and eat it? Tell a good story after giving away the ending?
  • sunshowers 2y ago
    There's a tension here but I don't think it's a fundamental conflict.
  • marginalia_nu 2y ago
    You can have other formats as well, and the one you describe can work out, though you're at serious risk of losing the audience before the big payoff. I think what matters the most is that the reader can tell quickly whether the text is interesting. You could start by e.g. describing a mystery, and then proceed to reveal the truth later, this sometimes works, though if the payoff isn't there, readers will feel cheated.
  • kqr 2y ago
    I have noticed that when I wrote blog posts they tend to fall in one of the two categories. Sometimes I'm trying to share an insight, in which case I make sure not to bury the lede[1]. Sometimes it's the journey to the insight that matters more than the insight itself[2], in which case the narrative take precedence, even if it buries the lede. In some cases it is possible to combine both, by using the storytelling formula that starts describing the outcome and then traces back to how things ended up that way. [1]: The lede is in the title, even! https://entropicthoughts.com/code-reviews-do-find-bugs https://entropicthoughts.com/code-reviews-do-find-bugs [2]: This is all meandering discovery. https://entropicthoughts.com/deploying-single-binary-haskell-web-app https://entropicthoughts.com/deploying-single-binary-haskell...
  • RicoElectrico 2y ago
• rsync 2y ago
  “Inverted pyramid …” I developed a writing format that I call an “iceberg article”: https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/tip.html https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/tip.html … which qualifies as an inverted pyramid but with some additional attributes.
  • Noumenon72 2y ago
    I built up a lot of expectation that this article was going to be self-referential and link to a hidden well of info. At the very least it ought to link to one example of such an article so we know you aren't describing something theoretical.
    • rsync 2y ago
      It is exactly what you expected - click the "body" link and you'll see the entire topic fully expanded: https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/body.html https://john.kozubik.com/pub/IcebergArticle/body.html
      • stavros 2y ago
        A few years ago I wrote an implementation of what you describe: https://skorokithakis.github.io/expounder/ https://skorokithakis.github.io/expounder/
      • Noumenon72 2y ago
        I don't feel bad for being unable to conceive of the "navigation bar" containing a link to the page's real content. That's the most effective camouflage possible.
• mousetree 2y ago
  When I worked in consulting, we would call this “top down communication” - starting with the key message first. As opposed to storytelling.
  • airstrike 2y ago
    I've heard it called BLUF, from the military, apparently. Bottom line up front.
  • kqr 2y ago
    I believe some domains use BLUF, for bottom line up front.
• hk1337 2y ago
  > The inverted pyramid is almost always the correct format for your text. I often put the tweet-length version of the post in the title or first paragraph. Get to the point quickly, then elaborate. Means you can bail out at any point of the text and still take home most of what mattered, while the meticulous crowd can have their nitpicks addressed toward the end. This sounds similar to what I was taught, in high school ~30 years ago, about journalism. When you write an article for the paper, the first sentence should have the who, what, when, where. The reader should be able to get the basic, relevant information from the first sentence then start giving more details as you go along. This is not only for the reader but to make it easier for the editor if/when they need to cut an article short then they can just cut text from the end.
  • ghaff 2y ago
    It may be worth noting that there are historical reasons why newspapers in particular used that format, especially wire copy. The idea was that, in layout, typeset stories could be cut at more or less an arbitrary point. Magazine stories are much less likely to follow this exact format although they still tend not to completely bury the lede.
    • eichin 2y ago
      > cut at a more or less arbitrary point Cut literally - I worked on a student newspaper (with professional phototypesetting gear, comparable to the city papers - AKI Ultrasystem) and second-tier "filler" content was just set in a single long column, then pasted up on the layout boards (hot wax as the adhesive) and then trimmed when it ran out of space (with an x-acto blade.) Reading that class of content was kind of optional for the layout editor, at least at 10:30pm when trying to get the boards out the door for an 11pm press deadline...
      • ghaff 2y ago
        Yeah. I was on a student paper and then actually co-founded one at a different school. At the time I don’t we used wire service copy in either case but you still needed to make stuff fit.
• ddejohn 2y ago
  > Images should above all never be funny. Why on Earth not? Maybe a blog about conflict in the middle east isn't the place, but a blog sharing stories about the tech industry? Surely some humorous screenshots will add to the experience. Obviously just throwing in random images totally unrelated to the subject matter would be a huge turnoff, but I cannot think of any reason why you'd take such an absolute position on something so low-stakes.
  • marginalia_nu 2y ago
    You get this jarring tonal whiplash when you add funny images to an otherwise serious text. The images detract from the message you are trying to convey. It also risks triggering a skimming behavior where the reader is just skipping between the images. It also appears insecure and juvenile, as though you're not fully confident that what you are saying will stand on its own without attempts at comedy, and ironically raises questions about the age and experience of the author. Of course there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumb, I would strongly avoid this pattern of communication.
    • mtlynch 2y ago
      You're kind of moving the goalposts. You went from "Images should above all never be funny," to "You get this jarring tonal whiplash when you add funny images to an otherwise serious text." Yeah, if a post's text is 100% serious, then yes it would be jarring to insert funny images. Nobody's suggesting you do that, though. >It also appears insecure and juvenile, as though you're not fully confident that what you are saying will stand on its own without attempts at comedy, and ironically raises questions about the age and experience of the author. This comes across to me as strangely judgmental and narrow-minded about what good technical writing is. Joel Spolsky is, in my opinion, the best software blogger of all time. His posts often integrated humor, and I think it definitely heightened rather than detracted from his writing. Look at the bloggers who are most popular on HN: Paul Graham, Julia Evans, Simon Willison, Rachel Kroll, Terence Eden. All of them often use a lighthearted style and integrate humor, often with humorous images as well.
    • wavemode 2y ago
• SwtCyber 2y ago
  Interesting take on images. I've found them helpful when they clarify something (e.g. architecture diagrams, before/after screenshots), but yeah, filler visuals or jokey memes can definitely cheapen the tone depending on the audience.
• pipes 2y ago
  The reverse of a wired article then. Takes about ten pages of scrolling to to get to the point.
• jvanderbot 2y ago
  You just described pyramid (point at top) but called it inverted pyramid (point at bottom)
• b0rsuk 2y ago
  [dead]