6 ms·

(Denim head) Anecdata - buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size. It's likely different people/factori

by iamben 2y ago

(Denim head) Anecdata - buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size. It's likely different people/factories making them, but often you'll find variation in size/denim even when the labelling in the same. One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned. Completely agree with going 'smaller' brand if you want consistency though (and that's a whole different world). But better tip - (if you're not looking for 'smart' denim) buy from eBay. Only buy pairs where everything has been measured properly (waist, inside leg, rise, etc) so you can get close to what you know you fits. You can find 20+ year old Levis for less than $20 - the denim is heavier, the quality is good and they have that perfect 'broken in' feel that makes the jeans feel like your best friend. Plus you can afford to try a few pairs to find ones you love.

hydrogen7800 2y ago
I had the same experience when buying from Macy's, which I felt would avoid any possible shennanigans from Amazon. Same story. 4 pair of the same style and size, but different colors. All fit differently.
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  Physical products are HARD. Programmers take for granted our digital assembly line, where it's possible to generate millions of byte-identical products with ease. As a software "engineer" I do not envy real engineers one bit.
  - ViktorRay 2y ago
    Wait but then why is one physical iPhone identical to another physical iPhone of the same model? I’m not asking to criticize. I’m genuinely curious. Not even all electronic products always feel the same in one’s hands like iPhones of the same model do. For example I remember back in the day my Xbox controllers would feel different from my friend’s Xbox controllers even though they were the same model and supposedly manufactured the same.
    - kaibee 2y ago
      Well, partially its that for all of Apple's faults, this is one thing that they're neurotic about. But the xbox controller comparison isn't really good because controllers have moving parts. An iPhone, except for the side-buttons, doesn't.
    - acuozzo 2y ago
      > why is one physical iPhone identical to another physical iPhone Apple is willing to pay the cost to minimize the margin-of-error at every step. Another approach to keeping yield high (at the possible risk of hurting your brand) is to do what Intel did with their Celeron line. The equivalent for Apple would be a "value iPhone" which would not come with the same set of expectations from customers.
      - jen20 2y ago
        It's worth noting Apple (likely) do this with the SOCs - the bucketed variants with fewer operational GPU cores are the output. They just don't do it with the packaging.
      - g-technology 2y ago
        Fabric vs metal/glass/plastic It is also easy to make thousands of identical items when your build material is solid and can’t be stretched
    - thesuitonym 2y ago
      It's much easier to get molded plastic into the same shape repeatedly, than it is to get fabric stitched together exactly the same way every time. As for the Xbox controllers, it could be a lot of differences. Microsoft does not feel the need to keep different runs exactly the same. They may be more willing to buy different types of plastic depending on what's cheapest this quarter. Or it could be much simpler, maybe iPhones do feel different. How much time do you actually spend interacting with someone else's phone (Have you ever even actually touched another person's phone, or just their case?), vs how much time did you spend with your buddy's Xbox controllers?
    - snozolli 2y ago
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > As a software "engineer" I do not envy real engineers one bit. Obligatory link to Hillel Wayne's Crossover Project [0]. The short version is that of 17 "real" engineers he interviewed who switched to software engineering, 15 said they consider software engineering to be an engineering discipline. Over the three blog posts he reviews the supposed differences between fields and finds that the crossovers don't agree with most of the stereotypical differences software people believe are there. There are real differences that they identify, but they're not any more significant than the differences between traditional engineering fields, which are vast. But yes, one of the differences that they do point out is that software is not constrained by the physical world in any meaningful way. [0] https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/
    - rurp 2y ago
      I know a few civil engineers and have been surprised at how many similarities that work has to software engineering. Some of the poor practices that people gripe about in tech are similar in that world, and the same goes for many good practices.
    - do_not_redeem 2y ago
      Fascinating, thanks for posting that, I know what I'm reading this weekend!
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      I mean that seems like a methodology that would run a heavy risk of sampling bias. This is literally people who have chosen to switch to software engineering, and who are currently software engineers.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        The only way to make the sample better would be to also sample people who moved the other direction, but there haven't been nearly as many of those because software engineering jobs have been in much higher demand than other engineering positions. What you certainly cannot do is sample people who have only experienced one field. But yes, it's not meant to be a quantitative study, but there are a lot of very valuable insights in the blog posts.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    I envy real engineers. There's something quite satisfying about being able to touch a thing you made.
  - j45 2y ago
    Software engineers can engineer ways to engineer more than certified engineers apply existing ways of engineering.
- aleksiy123 2y ago
  Feels like there's similarity to CPU and GPU binning. Make a bunch of them with the same process then bin them based on the variability.
wyclif 2y ago
What are some good, high-quality alternatives for someone who is a fan of the original Levi's 501 (button fly) jeans?
- dublinben 2y ago
  The Unbranded UB301 is probably a good place to start.
  - wyclif 2y ago
    I like Unbranded a lot, but I wish they sold their jeans with an inseam shorter than 34"...I don't like rolling mine up.
- captnasia 2y ago
  Uniqlo's selvedge jeans I've found are pretty good, although not button fly.
- ziml77 2y ago
  Last time I bought jeans I accidentally got the 501s because I didn't realize they were button fly. I thought I was going to return them but I ended up giving them a shot and now I love them. They're way less trouble to do up than I was expecting. (And because you work from the bottom up, I've never forgotten to close my fly... something that I managed far too often with zip flys)
  - neuralRiot 2y ago
    I like button flys because they’re less prone to the “zipper boner” when you sit down.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- iamben 2y ago
  Sure, start with 501s in Levi's LVC line. You'll get better quality, selvedge denim and they'll be based on 501s from different eras (so slimmer legs, wider hem, etc etc). If you're lucky you can find some with Japanese or Cone Mills (USA) denim. LVC are often in the sale, shop around. Then look at the Japanese brands. Most of them are reproducing 501s from various eras. FWIW, I like TCB (https://tcbjeans.myshopify.com/ https://tcbjeans.myshopify.com/) - the price/value ratio is superb, the quality is better than LVC and retail is cheaper. Their 40s and 50s jeans are both brilliant and they age amazingly. Hope that helps!
jghn 2y ago
> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned My understanding is that this isn't tied to Amazon or any specific retailer. But rather the cutting process for the fabric. They'll cut large stacks of denim cloth in a single go, and that's not an exact process. And that's why you can buy multiple supposedly identical pairs and notice differences.
barbazoo 2y ago
> buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size. At least for Amazon, keep in mind that they’re likely not put back into normal circulation if you return them so you’re creating waste where there doesn’t have to be.
- rurp 2y ago
  I'm skeptical of this. Used sales are a thing, plus I've gotten "new" products that had definitely been previously opened. Throwing away returned products seems to go against the ethos of squeezing every drop of profit out of things.
  - barbazoo 2y ago
    You're right it will make its way to to a consumer one way or another, even if it's the raw materials. It's still a lot of "waste" I think.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  This is not true. You can even see in tons of product listings where you can buy from "Amazon Resale". The prices are cheaper because they were returned from customers and are missing packaging, tags, etc. Amazon absolutely resells returned items when possible. And if it's not through Amazon Resale, it's by reselling them in bulk lots to people who then make money listing the items on eBay. Yes some of the absolute cheapest stuff gets tossed because it's not profitable to resell. But in many cases you're not even asked to return -- just keep it and get refunded. (As long as you don't have a history of abusing that.) Levi's are absolutely going to be resold. Amazon is a business. They're not going to eat a loss when they don't have to.
  - subscribed 2y ago
    What do you mean by "This is not true"? Amazon routinely destroy returned items, see the investigation for yourself: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-21/amazon-destroying-millions-of-items-of-unsold-stock-in-one-of-its-uk-warehouses-every-year-itv-news-investigation-finds https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-21/amazon-destroying-millio... > Undercover filming from inside Amazon's Dunfermline warehouse reveals the sheer scale of the waste: Smart TVs, laptops, drones, hairdryers, top of the range headphones, computer drives, books galore, thousands of sealed face masks – all sorted into boxes marked “destroy”. And you think they'll keep a pair of shoddy trousers? I'm sorry to disappoint you but that's unlikely...
dismalaf 2y ago
> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned. Honestly, even in the store, that's been a thing forever. You'd have to go to the department or mall store and try on a whole bunch. Lately I've switched to a brand that has stretchier fabric (so small variations in size matter less) and more long-leg sizes (my size is 31 or 32/34 and difficult to find in department stores) and been content.
eweise 2y ago
weird thing is every pair of 32/32 I try are too tight and too short.
mike503 2y ago
Same experience ordering Lucky brand jeans… from Lucky themselves! Same exact model would result in different material composition / origin country. It could be 0-2% spandex/100-98% cotton or something. I wound up making a little spreadsheet to try to figure out which ones I liked the best (origin country, materials) It’s crazy.
- matwood 2y ago
  It's not really the style anymore (and they were wildly expensive), but some of the best jeans I've had were True Religions. I could go to the store, try on a ton of pairs, and then get the length tailored. I used to power lift, and at the time, finding jeans that had 32" waist while still being bigger in the butt/thighs was a huge challenge. Only TR seemed to have them.
  - iwontberude 2y ago
    Same here, especially for taller sizes they were great.
- silisili 2y ago
  Ha, glad to know I'm not not alone doing that re: country of origin. I only wear Oxfords and casual button down shirts, and found that I only ever like the ones made in Bangladesh because of fit and material. I could talk your ear off for 20 minutes about how clothes from X feel cheap, clothes from Y have nice materials but don't fit right, etc. I just checked my closet, and every single shirt I regularly wear across three brands is made in Bangladesh!
  - alangibson 2y ago
    Supply chains matter. There may be a good mill in whatever the textile producing region of Bangladesh is that is the preferred supplier for those making that style of shirt.
  - sphars 2y ago
    I wear button downs nearly every day. What brands or stores do you buy from?
vik0 2y ago
I will never buy, let alone wear clothes previously worn by another person that I don't know (but even then I likely wouldn't) I am talking about in normal, everyday (for me) circumstances, this would likely not apply in dire circumstances
- harimau777 2y ago
  For what it's worth: Wearing hand me down clothes has been the norm throughout most of modern human history. To the point that it's been a major influence on fashion. For example, a lot of the ribbons and trim on Victorian clothing was a way to cover up where the clothing had been altered or repaired after being handed down (often from an employer to their servants). I don't say that to be critical if wearing previously worn clothing bothers you. I just bring it up because sometimes things stop bothering me once I realize that they are fairly common experiences.
  - vik0 2y ago
    I know that wearing hand me downs was common in history. I've worn plenty of hand me down clothes when I was a baby/growing up. But currently, where circumstances aren't pressing, I refuse to wear clothes worn by somebody else. I can be a bit of a germaphobe, so that probably explains most of it
    - y-curious 2y ago
      Do you bring your own silverware when you go to restaurants? Washing the clothes should suffce
      - vik0 2y ago
        No. But I never claimed to be self-consistent or rational, did I now?
        nikau 2y ago
        It's an odd hill to die on - I doubt the production line in Bangladesh or India would any less "dirty" than the person wearing clothes before you.
jonahhorowitz 2y ago
I worked at the Gap and Banana Republic all through high school and college. This was well known amongst the sales staff. There's a small amount of variation between each pair of jeans because of how they're cut and how the material stretches during cutting. Also just different people on different sewing machines makes a difference. We always advised customers to try on a few pairs of the size they were looking for to get one that fit best. Here's a quick shot of what the cutting machine looks like: https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680 https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680
- harimau777 2y ago
  I'm surprised they even get as good of results as they do with those cutting methods. Aligning the direction of the threads (called the grainline) before cutting is extremely important. To the point that the approach they are taking almost seems like making a knowingly defective product.
- oniony 2y ago
  I once took a pair of jeans back to Gap (UK) because they didn't fit. After trying on pairs for fifteen minutes I ended up on a pair that fitted perfectly, but which were the exact same size, style and fit. Weirdest experience exchanging an item for the exact same item.
wrp 2y ago
Any advice on how to shop for older jeans? I have >10-year old Lee jeans that are much better quality than what I can buy now. I didn't think it was possible to find such old stock of clothes but I'm willing to try.

by iamben 2y ago

hydrogen7800 2y ago

I had the same experience when buying from Macy's, which I felt would avoid any possible shennanigans from Amazon. Same story. 4 pair of the same style and size, but different colors. All fit differently.

do_not_redeem 2y ago
Physical products are HARD. Programmers take for granted our digital assembly line, where it's possible to generate millions of byte-identical products with ease. As a software "engineer" I do not envy real engineers one bit.
- ViktorRay 2y ago
  Wait but then why is one physical iPhone identical to another physical iPhone of the same model? I’m not asking to criticize. I’m genuinely curious. Not even all electronic products always feel the same in one’s hands like iPhones of the same model do. For example I remember back in the day my Xbox controllers would feel different from my friend’s Xbox controllers even though they were the same model and supposedly manufactured the same.
  - kaibee 2y ago
    Well, partially its that for all of Apple's faults, this is one thing that they're neurotic about. But the xbox controller comparison isn't really good because controllers have moving parts. An iPhone, except for the side-buttons, doesn't.
  - acuozzo 2y ago
    > why is one physical iPhone identical to another physical iPhone Apple is willing to pay the cost to minimize the margin-of-error at every step. Another approach to keeping yield high (at the possible risk of hurting your brand) is to do what Intel did with their Celeron line. The equivalent for Apple would be a "value iPhone" which would not come with the same set of expectations from customers.
    - jen20 2y ago
      It's worth noting Apple (likely) do this with the SOCs - the bucketed variants with fewer operational GPU cores are the output. They just don't do it with the packaging.
    - g-technology 2y ago
      Fabric vs metal/glass/plastic It is also easy to make thousands of identical items when your build material is solid and can’t be stretched
  - thesuitonym 2y ago
    It's much easier to get molded plastic into the same shape repeatedly, than it is to get fabric stitched together exactly the same way every time. As for the Xbox controllers, it could be a lot of differences. Microsoft does not feel the need to keep different runs exactly the same. They may be more willing to buy different types of plastic depending on what's cheapest this quarter. Or it could be much simpler, maybe iPhones do feel different. How much time do you actually spend interacting with someone else's phone (Have you ever even actually touched another person's phone, or just their case?), vs how much time did you spend with your buddy's Xbox controllers?
  - snozolli 2y ago
- lolinder 2y ago
  > As a software "engineer" I do not envy real engineers one bit. Obligatory link to Hillel Wayne's Crossover Project [0]. The short version is that of 17 "real" engineers he interviewed who switched to software engineering, 15 said they consider software engineering to be an engineering discipline. Over the three blog posts he reviews the supposed differences between fields and finds that the crossovers don't agree with most of the stereotypical differences software people believe are there. There are real differences that they identify, but they're not any more significant than the differences between traditional engineering fields, which are vast. But yes, one of the differences that they do point out is that software is not constrained by the physical world in any meaningful way. [0] https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/tags/crossover-project/
  - rurp 2y ago
    I know a few civil engineers and have been surprised at how many similarities that work has to software engineering. Some of the poor practices that people gripe about in tech are similar in that world, and the same goes for many good practices.
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    Fascinating, thanks for posting that, I know what I'm reading this weekend!
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    I mean that seems like a methodology that would run a heavy risk of sampling bias. This is literally people who have chosen to switch to software engineering, and who are currently software engineers.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      The only way to make the sample better would be to also sample people who moved the other direction, but there haven't been nearly as many of those because software engineering jobs have been in much higher demand than other engineering positions. What you certainly cannot do is sample people who have only experienced one field. But yes, it's not meant to be a quantitative study, but there are a lot of very valuable insights in the blog posts.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  I envy real engineers. There's something quite satisfying about being able to touch a thing you made.
- j45 2y ago
  Software engineers can engineer ways to engineer more than certified engineers apply existing ways of engineering.
aleksiy123 2y ago
Feels like there's similarity to CPU and GPU binning. Make a bunch of them with the same process then bin them based on the variability.

wyclif 2y ago

What are some good, high-quality alternatives for someone who is a fan of the original Levi's 501 (button fly) jeans?

dublinben 2y ago
The Unbranded UB301 is probably a good place to start.
- wyclif 2y ago
  I like Unbranded a lot, but I wish they sold their jeans with an inseam shorter than 34"...I don't like rolling mine up.
captnasia 2y ago
Uniqlo's selvedge jeans I've found are pretty good, although not button fly.
ziml77 2y ago
Last time I bought jeans I accidentally got the 501s because I didn't realize they were button fly. I thought I was going to return them but I ended up giving them a shot and now I love them. They're way less trouble to do up than I was expecting. (And because you work from the bottom up, I've never forgotten to close my fly... something that I managed far too often with zip flys)
- neuralRiot 2y ago
  I like button flys because they’re less prone to the “zipper boner” when you sit down.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
iamben 2y ago
Sure, start with 501s in Levi's LVC line. You'll get better quality, selvedge denim and they'll be based on 501s from different eras (so slimmer legs, wider hem, etc etc). If you're lucky you can find some with Japanese or Cone Mills (USA) denim. LVC are often in the sale, shop around. Then look at the Japanese brands. Most of them are reproducing 501s from various eras. FWIW, I like TCB (https://tcbjeans.myshopify.com/ https://tcbjeans.myshopify.com/) - the price/value ratio is superb, the quality is better than LVC and retail is cheaper. Their 40s and 50s jeans are both brilliant and they age amazingly. Hope that helps!

jghn 2y ago

> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned My understanding is that this isn't tied to Amazon or any specific retailer. But rather the cutting process for the fabric. They'll cut large stacks of denim cloth in a single go, and that's not an exact process. And that's why you can buy multiple supposedly identical pairs and notice differences.

barbazoo 2y ago

> buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size. At least for Amazon, keep in mind that they’re likely not put back into normal circulation if you return them so you’re creating waste where there doesn’t have to be.

rurp 2y ago
I'm skeptical of this. Used sales are a thing, plus I've gotten "new" products that had definitely been previously opened. Throwing away returned products seems to go against the ethos of squeezing every drop of profit out of things.
- barbazoo 2y ago
  You're right it will make its way to to a consumer one way or another, even if it's the raw materials. It's still a lot of "waste" I think.
crazygringo 2y ago
This is not true. You can even see in tons of product listings where you can buy from "Amazon Resale". The prices are cheaper because they were returned from customers and are missing packaging, tags, etc. Amazon absolutely resells returned items when possible. And if it's not through Amazon Resale, it's by reselling them in bulk lots to people who then make money listing the items on eBay. Yes some of the absolute cheapest stuff gets tossed because it's not profitable to resell. But in many cases you're not even asked to return -- just keep it and get refunded. (As long as you don't have a history of abusing that.) Levi's are absolutely going to be resold. Amazon is a business. They're not going to eat a loss when they don't have to.
- subscribed 2y ago
  What do you mean by "This is not true"? Amazon routinely destroy returned items, see the investigation for yourself: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-21/amazon-destroying-millions-of-items-of-unsold-stock-in-one-of-its-uk-warehouses-every-year-itv-news-investigation-finds https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-21/amazon-destroying-millio... > Undercover filming from inside Amazon's Dunfermline warehouse reveals the sheer scale of the waste: Smart TVs, laptops, drones, hairdryers, top of the range headphones, computer drives, books galore, thousands of sealed face masks – all sorted into boxes marked “destroy”. And you think they'll keep a pair of shoddy trousers? I'm sorry to disappoint you but that's unlikely...

dismalaf 2y ago

> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned. Honestly, even in the store, that's been a thing forever. You'd have to go to the department or mall store and try on a whole bunch. Lately I've switched to a brand that has stretchier fabric (so small variations in size matter less) and more long-leg sizes (my size is 31 or 32/34 and difficult to find in department stores) and been content.

eweise 2y ago

weird thing is every pair of 32/32 I try are too tight and too short.

mike503 2y ago

Same experience ordering Lucky brand jeans… from Lucky themselves! Same exact model would result in different material composition / origin country. It could be 0-2% spandex/100-98% cotton or something. I wound up making a little spreadsheet to try to figure out which ones I liked the best (origin country, materials) It’s crazy.

matwood 2y ago
It's not really the style anymore (and they were wildly expensive), but some of the best jeans I've had were True Religions. I could go to the store, try on a ton of pairs, and then get the length tailored. I used to power lift, and at the time, finding jeans that had 32" waist while still being bigger in the butt/thighs was a huge challenge. Only TR seemed to have them.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  Same here, especially for taller sizes they were great.
silisili 2y ago
Ha, glad to know I'm not not alone doing that re: country of origin. I only wear Oxfords and casual button down shirts, and found that I only ever like the ones made in Bangladesh because of fit and material. I could talk your ear off for 20 minutes about how clothes from X feel cheap, clothes from Y have nice materials but don't fit right, etc. I just checked my closet, and every single shirt I regularly wear across three brands is made in Bangladesh!
- alangibson 2y ago
  Supply chains matter. There may be a good mill in whatever the textile producing region of Bangladesh is that is the preferred supplier for those making that style of shirt.
- sphars 2y ago
  I wear button downs nearly every day. What brands or stores do you buy from?

vik0 2y ago

I will never buy, let alone wear clothes previously worn by another person that I don't know (but even then I likely wouldn't) I am talking about in normal, everyday (for me) circumstances, this would likely not apply in dire circumstances

harimau777 2y ago
For what it's worth: Wearing hand me down clothes has been the norm throughout most of modern human history. To the point that it's been a major influence on fashion. For example, a lot of the ribbons and trim on Victorian clothing was a way to cover up where the clothing had been altered or repaired after being handed down (often from an employer to their servants). I don't say that to be critical if wearing previously worn clothing bothers you. I just bring it up because sometimes things stop bothering me once I realize that they are fairly common experiences.
- vik0 2y ago
  I know that wearing hand me downs was common in history. I've worn plenty of hand me down clothes when I was a baby/growing up. But currently, where circumstances aren't pressing, I refuse to wear clothes worn by somebody else. I can be a bit of a germaphobe, so that probably explains most of it
  - y-curious 2y ago
    Do you bring your own silverware when you go to restaurants? Washing the clothes should suffce
    - vik0 2y ago
      No. But I never claimed to be self-consistent or rational, did I now?
      - nikau 2y ago
        It's an odd hill to die on - I doubt the production line in Bangladesh or India would any less "dirty" than the person wearing clothes before you.

jonahhorowitz 2y ago

I worked at the Gap and Banana Republic all through high school and college. This was well known amongst the sales staff. There's a small amount of variation between each pair of jeans because of how they're cut and how the material stretches during cutting. Also just different people on different sewing machines makes a difference. We always advised customers to try on a few pairs of the size they were looking for to get one that fit best. Here's a quick shot of what the cutting machine looks like: https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680 https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680

harimau777 2y ago
I'm surprised they even get as good of results as they do with those cutting methods. Aligning the direction of the threads (called the grainline) before cutting is extremely important. To the point that the approach they are taking almost seems like making a knowingly defective product.
oniony 2y ago
I once took a pair of jeans back to Gap (UK) because they didn't fit. After trying on pairs for fifteen minutes I ended up on a pair that fitted perfectly, but which were the exact same size, style and fit. Weirdest experience exchanging an item for the exact same item.

wrp 2y ago

Any advice on how to shop for older jeans? I have >10-year old Lee jeans that are much better quality than what I can buy now. I didn't think it was possible to find such old stock of clothes but I'm willing to try.