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> People are the same everywhere That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments,

> People are the same everywhere That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments, some create hells on earth. Source: I lived in 3 different countries + an isolated island. But you don't even need my biased opinion on the matter. We have cultures that throw gay people off the roofs, and cultures that celebrate them.

hnhg 2y ago
Some of those cultures that apparently celebrate gay people were also chemically castrating them not that long ago, and also have a lot of locals who still hate gay people and cannot wait to get back to the old ways. The rise of the far right in Europe and USA might challenge your idea of fixed regional cultures quite soon.
- tomp 2y ago
  The main drive of who you call “far right” is precisely to import less people that want to throw gays off roofs.
  - hnhg 2y ago
    Some of them, maybe. Some others are just not tolerant of LGBT lifestyles and equality at all. Also, I don't think someone who wants limited immigration is necessarily far right.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      *)limiting ILLEGAL immigration, emphasis on the word illegal. Nobody in Europe has a problem with LEGAL immigration, but the left wing parties and MSM keeps ignoring this and sweeping illegal immigration along the legal immigration banner to drive the narrative that Europeans are racists who hate all immigrants in order to justify (social) media censorship and restrictions on free speech to fight the "right wing extremist nazi" boogie man, which ironically, actually fuels the swing towards the extremist right wing, because the regular public discourse and communication channels for criticizing illegal immigration in public are censored/disabled.
      - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        They always say that, until you talk about legalizing more immigration, then you find out that no, they don't want any more immigration period.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        >until you talk about legalizing more immigration Maybe because people have been duped so much in the last 10+ years to know that the loaded statement of "more immigration" from the government only means legalizing more ILLEGAL immigration, driving them to hate all forms of immigration because the governments have proven themselves useless at enforcing border controls and depurations of those who brake the law. That's the result that you get when you maliciously sweep ILLEGAL immigration under the same political banner used for legal immigration, as the liberal European governments have done, so you end up hurting the image of legal immigration as well but this is the fault of politicians, not the people whoa have suffered form illegal immigration and have next to no channels of changing this other than voting far right.
        amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        Ummm... At least in the US, they are absolutely not worried about law breaking at all. Look who they just elected president? "Law and order" is basically dead here.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Do you want the Orange Man to bring back all those prisoners he sent to EL Salvador? Would you like them in your neighborhood?
        amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        I just find it fascinating how some people are perfectly fine with rich criminals, but want to get rid of the poor criminals. It makes me wonder what their real motivations are.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- like_any_other 2y ago
  That same far right might challenge your idea of the far right. E.g. Germany's AfD is headed by a lesbian in a relationship with a Sri Lankan, and the party enjoys disproportionate support by gay men: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-do-so-many-gay-men-support-the-afd/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-do-so-many-gay-men-s...
  - defrost 2y ago
    In a world where Ernst Röhm, leader of the SA, the Nazi Party's stormtroopers, was openly gay, and Reich uniforms and Hugo Boss feature heavily in gay iconography ... that would suprise us why?
    - like_any_other 2y ago
      I was replying specifically to a post that equated the far right with anti-gay views. Ask them.
      - defrost 2y ago
        Fair point, I was chaining in general and not specifically having a go at yourself. People are complicated and there's no shortage of head scratching examples of seemingly mismatched fellow travellers.
only-one1701 2y ago
Would love to know your thoughts on what differentiates people. Perhaps race?
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  Similar experience/perspective as the gp. People in different places are, in many if not most cases, just fundamentally different in countless ways. I think both genetics (personality, among endless other characteristics is significantly to majority heritable and going to have different distributions in different areas) and environment/culture play significant roles. But an interesting thing is that by the time people are adults, perhaps even before, the environmental factors have irreversibly changed them so marginalising cultural factors as "just" environmental doesn't really paint a fair picture. For a person who's happy to travel/live just about anywhere this makes having children doubly fun, because you basically get to decide the 'cultural mold' for your children, which is really neat!
- vladms 2y ago
  I would call it culture. How you are educated, what you see around since day 0 on. It is very hard to escape it and unless you travel and live in another country you will not even be aware of such things (and even then you need a certain level of introspection).
- jamiek88 2y ago
  Seeing how the concept of race is a social construct with absolutely zero science behind it then no.
  - ANewFormation 2y ago
    This is commonly stated but seems more driven by ideology than science. People's racial identity is near to perfectly correlated with their genetic identity as can be ascertained with a very limited number of genetic markers. And essentially all of species related biology would be a 'social construct' by such logic. The difference between entire species is often poorly defined. Different species can even interbreed and produce fertile offspring such as a liger. Or take the Australian Dingo which is literally just a wild dog, but it's not classified as one for quite arbitrary reasons.
mr_toad 2y ago
> We have cultures that throw gay people off the roofs, and cultures that celebrate them. And you could take single individuals from either culture and drop them in the other culture, and most of them would happily act and think just like the new culture, and swear blind that they’d always thought that way. It would be an interesting experiment to see how many individuals you could replace one-by-one before the culture changed. Or perhaps, like a Ship of Theseus, you could replace all the people, but have the culture endure.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  And so if you went to Saudi Arabia you'd pretend to be down with executing people for apostasy? Obviously it's an extreme example but many of the norms of a Western mindset would be no less offensive to billions of people in this world. What bias of moderation exists is that you probably wouldn't migrate to Saudi Arabia unless you were already mostly ok with their values. And if e.g. economic opportunity drove you there you'd probably keep your opinions to yourself, but it's unlikely your values would fundamentally change. I will only add - I speak from experience here.
  - neaden 2y ago
    If you grew up in Saudi Arabia raised by a typical family then yeah sure, you probably would be fine with it. Culture of course shapes people and I think it's silly to pretend you could freely swap adults but that doesn't mean that people are fundamentally different.
    - bufferoverflow 2y ago
      That's not what he asked you. You answered some other question.
      - janderson215 2y ago
        The question that was asked was not to confirm what GP said, it was combative to try to position GP as a bad person. Basically the equivalent of saying “so you’re saying you would be okay killing Jews if you lived in Nazi Germany.” GP answered to clarify their position and answered the only question that should have been asked, the equivalent of, “if during my childhood I was indoctrinated by the Hitler Youth program, yes I probably would have done this horrible thing and so would you.”
kaveh_h 2y ago
Distribution of Culture is way different now that internet enables virtual cultures to exist which have less physical barrier.
Gormo 2y ago
Individuals are drastically different from each other. Populations of humans, however, regress to the mean fairly readily, and even small groups (at least if they aren't grouped according to precise selection criteria) will tend to reflect very similar emergent patterns.
bsoles 2y ago
> If you starve a wealthy man for 2 weeks he will be ready to cannibalize... People are the same everywhere. > That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments, some create hells on earth. Sure. People are not the same in their current behaviors. People are the same in how they acquire their behaviors or change their behaviors based on the conditions of their environments. And sometimes these changes are very quick. To give a very simple example, many people in my native country who would throw burning cigarette butts on the ground, stop doing so immediately when they, say, immigrate to the US. They didn't really change all of a sudden; what remains the same is the people's opportunistic ability to adapt to the conditions of their environment, regardless of what is moral, just, etc.
- alternatex 2y ago
  Your example is a popular trope in the Balkans about how Balkan people behave when they go to work in Germany vs how they behave when they come back home in the Balkans. Incentives are everything in a civilized society and anyone who cannot wrap their mind around this is most likely privileged.
mmooss 2y ago
Siblings raised together in the same family can vary greatly.
itissid 2y ago
My idea was to convey was that the sense of identity attached to a people is weird. And that people are just people. You can get the same set of people(genetically, demographically same) to kill millions in a war and become pious afterwards and vice versa. When I said people are the same it means the same people who created great environments can in all likelihood create hell within a generation span.

hnhg 2y ago

Some of those cultures that apparently celebrate gay people were also chemically castrating them not that long ago, and also have a lot of locals who still hate gay people and cannot wait to get back to the old ways. The rise of the far right in Europe and USA might challenge your idea of fixed regional cultures quite soon.

tomp 2y ago
The main drive of who you call “far right” is precisely to import less people that want to throw gays off roofs.
- hnhg 2y ago
  Some of them, maybe. Some others are just not tolerant of LGBT lifestyles and equality at all. Also, I don't think someone who wants limited immigration is necessarily far right.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    *)limiting ILLEGAL immigration, emphasis on the word illegal. Nobody in Europe has a problem with LEGAL immigration, but the left wing parties and MSM keeps ignoring this and sweeping illegal immigration along the legal immigration banner to drive the narrative that Europeans are racists who hate all immigrants in order to justify (social) media censorship and restrictions on free speech to fight the "right wing extremist nazi" boogie man, which ironically, actually fuels the swing towards the extremist right wing, because the regular public discourse and communication channels for criticizing illegal immigration in public are censored/disabled.
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      They always say that, until you talk about legalizing more immigration, then you find out that no, they don't want any more immigration period.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        >until you talk about legalizing more immigration Maybe because people have been duped so much in the last 10+ years to know that the loaded statement of "more immigration" from the government only means legalizing more ILLEGAL immigration, driving them to hate all forms of immigration because the governments have proven themselves useless at enforcing border controls and depurations of those who brake the law. That's the result that you get when you maliciously sweep ILLEGAL immigration under the same political banner used for legal immigration, as the liberal European governments have done, so you end up hurting the image of legal immigration as well but this is the fault of politicians, not the people whoa have suffered form illegal immigration and have next to no channels of changing this other than voting far right.
        amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        Ummm... At least in the US, they are absolutely not worried about law breaking at all. Look who they just elected president? "Law and order" is basically dead here.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Do you want the Orange Man to bring back all those prisoners he sent to EL Salvador? Would you like them in your neighborhood?
        amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        I just find it fascinating how some people are perfectly fine with rich criminals, but want to get rid of the poor criminals. It makes me wonder what their real motivations are.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
like_any_other 2y ago
That same far right might challenge your idea of the far right. E.g. Germany's AfD is headed by a lesbian in a relationship with a Sri Lankan, and the party enjoys disproportionate support by gay men: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-do-so-many-gay-men-support-the-afd/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-do-so-many-gay-men-s...
- defrost 2y ago
  In a world where Ernst Röhm, leader of the SA, the Nazi Party's stormtroopers, was openly gay, and Reich uniforms and Hugo Boss feature heavily in gay iconography ... that would suprise us why?
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    I was replying specifically to a post that equated the far right with anti-gay views. Ask them.
    - defrost 2y ago
      Fair point, I was chaining in general and not specifically having a go at yourself. People are complicated and there's no shortage of head scratching examples of seemingly mismatched fellow travellers.

only-one1701 2y ago

Would love to know your thoughts on what differentiates people. Perhaps race?

ANewFormation 2y ago
Similar experience/perspective as the gp. People in different places are, in many if not most cases, just fundamentally different in countless ways. I think both genetics (personality, among endless other characteristics is significantly to majority heritable and going to have different distributions in different areas) and environment/culture play significant roles. But an interesting thing is that by the time people are adults, perhaps even before, the environmental factors have irreversibly changed them so marginalising cultural factors as "just" environmental doesn't really paint a fair picture. For a person who's happy to travel/live just about anywhere this makes having children doubly fun, because you basically get to decide the 'cultural mold' for your children, which is really neat!
vladms 2y ago
I would call it culture. How you are educated, what you see around since day 0 on. It is very hard to escape it and unless you travel and live in another country you will not even be aware of such things (and even then you need a certain level of introspection).
jamiek88 2y ago
Seeing how the concept of race is a social construct with absolutely zero science behind it then no.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  This is commonly stated but seems more driven by ideology than science. People's racial identity is near to perfectly correlated with their genetic identity as can be ascertained with a very limited number of genetic markers. And essentially all of species related biology would be a 'social construct' by such logic. The difference between entire species is often poorly defined. Different species can even interbreed and produce fertile offspring such as a liger. Or take the Australian Dingo which is literally just a wild dog, but it's not classified as one for quite arbitrary reasons.

mr_toad 2y ago

> We have cultures that throw gay people off the roofs, and cultures that celebrate them. And you could take single individuals from either culture and drop them in the other culture, and most of them would happily act and think just like the new culture, and swear blind that they’d always thought that way. It would be an interesting experiment to see how many individuals you could replace one-by-one before the culture changed. Or perhaps, like a Ship of Theseus, you could replace all the people, but have the culture endure.

ANewFormation 2y ago
And so if you went to Saudi Arabia you'd pretend to be down with executing people for apostasy? Obviously it's an extreme example but many of the norms of a Western mindset would be no less offensive to billions of people in this world. What bias of moderation exists is that you probably wouldn't migrate to Saudi Arabia unless you were already mostly ok with their values. And if e.g. economic opportunity drove you there you'd probably keep your opinions to yourself, but it's unlikely your values would fundamentally change. I will only add - I speak from experience here.
- neaden 2y ago
  If you grew up in Saudi Arabia raised by a typical family then yeah sure, you probably would be fine with it. Culture of course shapes people and I think it's silly to pretend you could freely swap adults but that doesn't mean that people are fundamentally different.
  - bufferoverflow 2y ago
    That's not what he asked you. You answered some other question.
    - janderson215 2y ago
      The question that was asked was not to confirm what GP said, it was combative to try to position GP as a bad person. Basically the equivalent of saying “so you’re saying you would be okay killing Jews if you lived in Nazi Germany.” GP answered to clarify their position and answered the only question that should have been asked, the equivalent of, “if during my childhood I was indoctrinated by the Hitler Youth program, yes I probably would have done this horrible thing and so would you.”

kaveh_h 2y ago

Distribution of Culture is way different now that internet enables virtual cultures to exist which have less physical barrier.

Gormo 2y ago

Individuals are drastically different from each other. Populations of humans, however, regress to the mean fairly readily, and even small groups (at least if they aren't grouped according to precise selection criteria) will tend to reflect very similar emergent patterns.

bsoles 2y ago

> If you starve a wealthy man for 2 weeks he will be ready to cannibalize... People are the same everywhere. > That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments, some create hells on earth. Sure. People are not the same in their current behaviors. People are the same in how they acquire their behaviors or change their behaviors based on the conditions of their environments. And sometimes these changes are very quick. To give a very simple example, many people in my native country who would throw burning cigarette butts on the ground, stop doing so immediately when they, say, immigrate to the US. They didn't really change all of a sudden; what remains the same is the people's opportunistic ability to adapt to the conditions of their environment, regardless of what is moral, just, etc.

alternatex 2y ago
Your example is a popular trope in the Balkans about how Balkan people behave when they go to work in Germany vs how they behave when they come back home in the Balkans. Incentives are everything in a civilized society and anyone who cannot wrap their mind around this is most likely privileged.

mmooss 2y ago

Siblings raised together in the same family can vary greatly.

itissid 2y ago

My idea was to convey was that the sense of identity attached to a people is weird. And that people are just people. You can get the same set of people(genetically, demographically same) to kill millions in a war and become pious afterwards and vice versa. When I said people are the same it means the same people who created great environments can in all likelihood create hell within a generation span.