3 ms·

> Please everyone, adults and kids alike, enjoy playing D&D without the stigma and derision. I could not disagree more Play something else, Pathfinder, Shadow

> Please everyone, adults and kids alike, enjoy playing D&D without the stigma and derision. I could not disagree more Play something else, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Castles and Crusades Please stop giving Wizards of the Coast your money, please start supporting other options in the TTRPG space D&D is so huge in the hobby that it makes it impossible to find other people to play with and there are so many other games that are more fun out there!

shlant 2y ago
D&D has been around for so long that you can easily play without giving a cent to Wizards of the Coast. However, I still definitely think having people try more options is good.
- mystified5016 2y ago
  No, no you really cannot. Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. At that point, you aren't playing the same game that everyone else is. Wizards has got their fingers in every slice of this pie. Even if you buy D&D stories written by someone else, you're still paying license to Wizards. When you buy a mini, you pay license to Wizards.
  - gyesxnuibh 2y ago
    I bought my minis 3d printed off Etsy, I bought some random wet erase map and markers, and I bought a non-d&d licensed 5e module. I thought this was the whole license debacle which got walked back? I already owned a 5e players handbook but there's no reoccurring money going to wizards here and we run a biweekly 5e campaign.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. If you aren't concerned about legality, all the books are readily available without paying wizards (heck, most of the recent ones and many of the older ones are also legally available that way in deas tree form in the secondhand market); you can buy miniatures that aren't specifically D&D licensed (lots of people use them in playing D&D, whether alone or mixed with licensed D&D minis; it has no effect one way or the other on the game), there are plenty of D&D-compatible maps with no licensing relationship to Wizards. Its very easy to play D&D without paying Wizards.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    Minis - you can print them on paper, you can use dice, you can 3D print them, you can use minis from other games, you can use Pathfinder minis. Maps - you can print them for free (minus ink & paper costs), you can draw your own, you can use maps from other games. Even if you're playing a published adventure, you can still find maps for free online. Books - you can pick them up second-hand, you can pirate them, you can borrow them. I also never fully understood the stigma against home-brewed campaigns - I strongly prefer both playing & running homebrew.
  - gs17 2y ago
    > Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. Honestly, with some of the books they've published for 5e, you're probably still half-way to homebrew if you do pay them. It's pretty frustrating that there's such huge holes in a lot of the first-party content. And we've been having a lot of fun drawing on dry-erase battle maps and paper minis.
gs17 2y ago
Agreed, I'm running 5e for some friends and I really wish I could convince them to move to PF2e, Paizo has so much more respect for their customers. WotC keeps finding new ways to insult us, especially towards DMs.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  You're going to have a hell of a time moving people from 5E to PF2E. I've been playing 5E for awhile now, and recently joined a PF2E game as a cast member on a podcast. The rules are significantly more crunchy, building a character without assistance - both from people, and from software - is virtualy impossible, remembering all of the rules as a new-ish player is difficult, and I would not even want to try running a campaign with all of the rules, conditions, interactions, etc. There are a lot of things that PF2E does that I really like, but as a whole system it's definitely geared at a person who liked 3E or 4E, but definitely not 5E. The next campaign I run, I might try running in Wildsea, or maybe Spire or Heart, but I don't see myself joining or running a PF2E game ever again.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    > The rules are significantly more crunchy, building a character without assistance - both from people, and from software - is virtualy impossible, remembering all of the rules as a new-ish player is difficult, and I would not even want to try running a campaign with all of the rules, conditions, interactions, etc. This is a mindblowing paragraph to read Yes, I've been playing D&D a long time Yes, I used to make 3e characters by hand without any software, which are much more complex than 5e or PF2E From my perspective, 5e and PF2E are around the same level of complexity I strongly suspect that if you think 5e doesn't have a similar amount of rule complexity, you are ignoring a ton of 5e rules without even realizing they exist, or playing them wrong Here's a question: In 5e, can you drink a potion as a bonus action? In Baldur's Gate 3, you can But no. Drinking a potion in 5e is an action However, you can ready a potion from your pack or belt to drink, as a bonus action, as long as you have a free hand to hold it with Bet you've been playing that wrong, most people do
    - 2y ago
etchalon 2y ago
5E is the most accessible TTRPG out there – lots of content dedicated content, a huge ecosystem, and a ruleset that's "easy enough". No one, just starting out, should play Pathfinder.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  5e is the most accessible (available everywhere and easy to find), but it's not the most accessible (easy to learn and play) The 5e ruleset sucks, actually. It's deceptively complicated and the books are organized very poorly. Even Baldur's Gate 3 gets a bunch of 5e rules wrong, sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident, because the rulebooks are poorly written and sometimes contradictory Pathfinder might not be any better as a starting game, but there are much easier beginner games out there. The only problem is no one has heard of them because D&D eats absolutely all of the oxygen in the TTRPG space
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    I thought the same as the person you're replying to, once - and then I tried to go through the (original 5E) PHB's character creation rules, and realized that they are actually written very badly, and that I've come to rely heavily on DNDBeyond for character creation. I haven't looked at the 2024 5E character creation part of PHB, but I can't imagine it's worse, lol. > Pathfinder might not be any better as a starting game, but there are much easier beginner games out there. The only problem is no one has heard of them because D&D eats absolutely all of the oxygen in the TTRPG space I couldn't agree more! Pathfinder is too crunchy for new players who don't already have experience playing TTRPGs, and are sure they want that level of mechanics in their game. There are so many RPGs out there, ranging from one-pagers that could probably be printed on an index card (The Witch Is Dead), to something on par with 5E's complexity that nevertheless has a lot of interesting mechanics and stories to tell (Wildsea, Spire).
spudlyo 2y ago
Here I am trying to talk about society's shifting attitude towards fantasy role playing games, and here you are disagreeing strongly, bringing the conversation around to your hobby horse topic centered on your animus towards Wizards of the Coast. Thank you for illustrating clearly to me why I'm not tempted to seek community in the role playing space.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > society's shifting attitude towards fantasy role playing games, That's kind if my point though. Society has not had a shifting attitude towards "fantasy role playing games", it has had a shifting attitude towards "Dungeons and Dragons" Society has not at all heard of any of the alternative fantasy role playing games, which may as well not exist as far as society is concerned I love ttrpgs. I want it to be a big hobby like board games are currently. You're right I don't like WOTC as a company, but my primary motivation is to see other titles become more know and played, because there are so many great games out there My "disagreeing strongly" part was meant tongue in cheek by the way

shlant 2y ago

D&D has been around for so long that you can easily play without giving a cent to Wizards of the Coast. However, I still definitely think having people try more options is good.

mystified5016 2y ago
No, no you really cannot. Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. At that point, you aren't playing the same game that everyone else is. Wizards has got their fingers in every slice of this pie. Even if you buy D&D stories written by someone else, you're still paying license to Wizards. When you buy a mini, you pay license to Wizards.
- gyesxnuibh 2y ago
  I bought my minis 3d printed off Etsy, I bought some random wet erase map and markers, and I bought a non-d&d licensed 5e module. I thought this was the whole license debacle which got walked back? I already owned a 5e players handbook but there's no reoccurring money going to wizards here and we run a biweekly 5e campaign.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. If you aren't concerned about legality, all the books are readily available without paying wizards (heck, most of the recent ones and many of the older ones are also legally available that way in deas tree form in the secondhand market); you can buy miniatures that aren't specifically D&D licensed (lots of people use them in playing D&D, whether alone or mixed with licensed D&D minis; it has no effect one way or the other on the game), there are plenty of D&D-compatible maps with no licensing relationship to Wizards. Its very easy to play D&D without paying Wizards.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Minis - you can print them on paper, you can use dice, you can 3D print them, you can use minis from other games, you can use Pathfinder minis. Maps - you can print them for free (minus ink & paper costs), you can draw your own, you can use maps from other games. Even if you're playing a published adventure, you can still find maps for free online. Books - you can pick them up second-hand, you can pirate them, you can borrow them. I also never fully understood the stigma against home-brewed campaigns - I strongly prefer both playing & running homebrew.
- gs17 2y ago
  > Unless you want to play with no book, no minis, no map, and a completely home-brewed campaign with all bespoke characters and stories. Honestly, with some of the books they've published for 5e, you're probably still half-way to homebrew if you do pay them. It's pretty frustrating that there's such huge holes in a lot of the first-party content. And we've been having a lot of fun drawing on dry-erase battle maps and paper minis.

gs17 2y ago

Agreed, I'm running 5e for some friends and I really wish I could convince them to move to PF2e, Paizo has so much more respect for their customers. WotC keeps finding new ways to insult us, especially towards DMs.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
You're going to have a hell of a time moving people from 5E to PF2E. I've been playing 5E for awhile now, and recently joined a PF2E game as a cast member on a podcast. The rules are significantly more crunchy, building a character without assistance - both from people, and from software - is virtualy impossible, remembering all of the rules as a new-ish player is difficult, and I would not even want to try running a campaign with all of the rules, conditions, interactions, etc. There are a lot of things that PF2E does that I really like, but as a whole system it's definitely geared at a person who liked 3E or 4E, but definitely not 5E. The next campaign I run, I might try running in Wildsea, or maybe Spire or Heart, but I don't see myself joining or running a PF2E game ever again.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > The rules are significantly more crunchy, building a character without assistance - both from people, and from software - is virtualy impossible, remembering all of the rules as a new-ish player is difficult, and I would not even want to try running a campaign with all of the rules, conditions, interactions, etc. This is a mindblowing paragraph to read Yes, I've been playing D&D a long time Yes, I used to make 3e characters by hand without any software, which are much more complex than 5e or PF2E From my perspective, 5e and PF2E are around the same level of complexity I strongly suspect that if you think 5e doesn't have a similar amount of rule complexity, you are ignoring a ton of 5e rules without even realizing they exist, or playing them wrong Here's a question: In 5e, can you drink a potion as a bonus action? In Baldur's Gate 3, you can But no. Drinking a potion in 5e is an action However, you can ready a potion from your pack or belt to drink, as a bonus action, as long as you have a free hand to hold it with Bet you've been playing that wrong, most people do
  - 2y ago

etchalon 2y ago

5E is the most accessible TTRPG out there – lots of content dedicated content, a huge ecosystem, and a ruleset that's "easy enough". No one, just starting out, should play Pathfinder.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
5e is the most accessible (available everywhere and easy to find), but it's not the most accessible (easy to learn and play) The 5e ruleset sucks, actually. It's deceptively complicated and the books are organized very poorly. Even Baldur's Gate 3 gets a bunch of 5e rules wrong, sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident, because the rulebooks are poorly written and sometimes contradictory Pathfinder might not be any better as a starting game, but there are much easier beginner games out there. The only problem is no one has heard of them because D&D eats absolutely all of the oxygen in the TTRPG space
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  I thought the same as the person you're replying to, once - and then I tried to go through the (original 5E) PHB's character creation rules, and realized that they are actually written very badly, and that I've come to rely heavily on DNDBeyond for character creation. I haven't looked at the 2024 5E character creation part of PHB, but I can't imagine it's worse, lol. > Pathfinder might not be any better as a starting game, but there are much easier beginner games out there. The only problem is no one has heard of them because D&D eats absolutely all of the oxygen in the TTRPG space I couldn't agree more! Pathfinder is too crunchy for new players who don't already have experience playing TTRPGs, and are sure they want that level of mechanics in their game. There are so many RPGs out there, ranging from one-pagers that could probably be printed on an index card (The Witch Is Dead), to something on par with 5E's complexity that nevertheless has a lot of interesting mechanics and stories to tell (Wildsea, Spire).

spudlyo 2y ago

Here I am trying to talk about society's shifting attitude towards fantasy role playing games, and here you are disagreeing strongly, bringing the conversation around to your hobby horse topic centered on your animus towards Wizards of the Coast. Thank you for illustrating clearly to me why I'm not tempted to seek community in the role playing space.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
> society's shifting attitude towards fantasy role playing games, That's kind if my point though. Society has not had a shifting attitude towards "fantasy role playing games", it has had a shifting attitude towards "Dungeons and Dragons" Society has not at all heard of any of the alternative fantasy role playing games, which may as well not exist as far as society is concerned I love ttrpgs. I want it to be a big hobby like board games are currently. You're right I don't like WOTC as a company, but my primary motivation is to see other titles become more know and played, because there are so many great games out there My "disagreeing strongly" part was meant tongue in cheek by the way