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Airline demand between Canada and United States collapses, down 70%+
- anallergicpanda 2y ago[dead]
- Maskawanian 2y agoElbows up, Canada.
- a2tech 2y agoThis is just the beginning. Welcome to being a pariah state.
- dopidopHN 2y agoI think it will take a minute to sink in. The US was already leaking soft power since one or two decade. But now it’s hemorrhaging it.
- kridsdale1 2y agoMore like a grand cavitation or amputation.
- more_corn 2y agoKeep calling it transborder traffic and the administration will block it entirely.
- kridsdale1 2y agoThe Department of Transportation is next up.
- cyberax 2y agoOn the bright side, we maybe finally can ban all the trans fats!
- brummm 2y ago"Everyone can draw their own conclusions as to what’s causing this." - Trump caused this. It's clear and simple.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoThe GOP, not just Trump. Plenty of support for his "51st state" comments coming from within the administration, and from the broader GOP gallery. And a whole contingent of Americans who don't seem to recognize this as a serious diplomatic concern. Look at the bulk of comments in this post trying to handwave this away as some kind of "trade dispute" or "irrational fear of ICE" or "Canadian dollar is low." No, your president and his entire cabinet say they're going to annex our country. Gee, I wonder why we wouldn't travel there.
- rapind 2y ago> The GOP, not just Trump. Pretty sure the GOP is just Trump MAGA now. Not sure who, if any, the holdouts are now.
- leoedin 2y agoIt’s funny that a country so wound up in national pride as the USA can’t see that an existential threat to your countries sovereignty triggers a deep emotional response.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoI am starting to think it's the specific nature of American national pride, which sees itself as unique. Hence the famous quip by the Fox News host to Doug Ford that he was "offended" or surprised that Canadians wouldn't want to be part of the US. To many, I suspect, "51st state" was supposed to be some kind of compliment or favourable invitation.
- senderista 2y agoThey're only "supporting" it because he said it and they're fucking cowards. Nobody else was talking about this before, not even the MAGA crazies.
- captnblob 2y ago“Everyone can draw their own conclusions as to what’s causing this. It’s also anyone’s guess if we’re at rock bottom in terms of consumer sentiment, and if we’ll see more close-in bookings than in past years. But either way, April is right around the corner, and those drops are massive.” One point I’ll make is the Canadian economy is not doing well regardless.
- xutopia 2y agoThe Canadian economy is not doing so poorly that it could explain a 70% drop nearly overnight.
- captnblob 2y agoThe job market for one is brutal. It’s all interconnected. Its been leading up to this for some time.
- notahacker 2y agoThe context is that Canadian airlines aren't seeing 70% drops in forward bookings anywhere else and WestJet is adding routes to Europe to replace US flights...
- seryoiupfurds 2y agoThen why now all of a sudden instead of 6 months ago?
- brianbest101 2y agoThis by a mile. Anecdotally, by buddy runs a few bnb’s in cottage country in Ontario. Bookings for the summer are mimicking that pandemic surge in 2020/21. It’s wild out there right now.
- pearle 2y agoThis take is bordering on delusional. It's the annexation threats, trade war, internal collapse of law and order, border issues, and complete disrespect towards a close ally.
- alexfromapex 2y agoThis could just be related to how sour the economy has been in both countries. I don’t know a lot of people booking vacations right now.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- doublerabbit 2y agoI enjoy touring states from the UK. I now have very little zero interest in flying to a country where A, the administration is incompetent and B, bullies other countries. Add to the mix of Boeing planes falling apart mid-flight doesn't fill me with confidence either. Many people over here echo the same opinion and where-by Disney Land being one of the popular summer destinations; co-workers I spoken to are looking elsewhere. The UK is one of the few countries that provide tourism for the country. So it's not just local it's global.
- youngtaff 2y agoYup… as a Brit who’s holidayed, been to conferences and done business in the US I currently have zero interest in going there ATM
- seryoiupfurds 2y agoThen why now all of a sudden but not at all 6 months ago?
- bronco21016 2y agoIt would be fascinating to see this trend data matched with statistics on how many Canadians are embarking on their journey from the US. Historically, Canadians will drive across the border in search of cheaper airfare in the US. Cities like Buffalo, NY, Burlington, VT, Detroit, MI, Minot and Grand Forks, ND. At least that's been my anecdotal experience flying in and out of those cities. In Buffalo for example I distinctly remember literal bus loads of Canadians staying at nearby hotels before boarding US carriers headed for warmer destinations. I suspect with the current environment, both are down. Still would be interesting though.
- c0nsumer 2y agoI'd guess warmer destinations in the US. Flying from Canada to non-US destinations is often MUCH cheaper because there's no TSA fees (which the US puts on the departing airport) for the return leg.
- blonder 2y agoAs someone from Buffalo it is (anecdotally) pretty common for Canadians to come here to fly to other parts of the US for cheaper, and for us to go to Toronto for cheaper international flights.
- dagw 2y agoI just spent a few minutes on Google Flights looking at trips to various US holiday destinations like Miami, Las Vegas, Honolulu and Los Angeles. Every single destination was a lot cheaper (in some cases less than half price) when flying out Toronto compared to Buffalo. I wonder is a reflection on the collapse of demand for flights to the US.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago[dead]
- rchaud 2y ago> Historically, Canadians will drive across the border in search of cheaper airfare in the US. Cities like Buffalo, NY, Burlington, VT, Detroit, MI, Minot and Grand Forks, ND. I don't see that being the case for quite a few years. USD 1 has been ~ CAD 1.30 for a few years, so any US flight would need to be 24% cheaper dollar-to-dollar to even consider it. And that is before taking into account driving costs, traffic jams and wait times at the border crossing.
- whatshisface 2y agoIf nothing can happen in the US without a corporate lobby backing it, maybe the tourism industry will re-inject some care for due process and rule of law into security. Abuses have been a non-partisan flaw growing in magnitude, little by little for many years now, far beyond anyone's interests.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoIt's not about "security" Stop threatening to annex us, apologize at a diplomatic level, and drop the unjust tariffs. I don't even know why the US ambassador hasn't been summoned before the PM for scolding at this point.
- briandear 2y agoHow about Canada drop their tariffs? Canada had tariffs long before Trump came around. And nobody is seriously threatening to annex Canada.
- Sanzig 2y agoWhat tariffs do you want dropped? Please be specific. The vast majority of US and Canadian trade has been tariff-free since the 1980s when the US-Canada Free Trade Agreement was signed. USMCA is also up for renegotiation in 2026, so if the US is upset about tariffs on things like dairy, the appropriate venue would be to negotiate at that time. The US already agreed to the existing tariff structure when the first USMCA deal was signed in 2018 under the previous Trump administration. To specifically address dairy tariffs, US dairy in Canada is actually currently tariff-free because there is a volume cap and the tariffs only apply when that volume cap is exceeded. Currently the US is only using about 40% of that cap. Finally, the U.S. President is extremely serious about his annexation threats. He said this multiple times, it's not a joke. We do not treat it as a joke in Canada. Please do not insult us by trying to gaslight us.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoIndeed. Marco Rubio repeated Trump's annexation threat while on Canadian soil during the G7. I am not sure why we're supposed to treat this as a "bad joke"
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago[flagged]
- smeej 2y agoSlurs have no place on HN. If you can't find a way to express your displeasure without using slurs, do us all a favor and keep it to yourself.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y agoIt's a pop culture reference.
- jmspring 2y agoPlanning a couple trips from WA to BC this year - so long as we are allowed in. US border patrol has generally been less than pleasant (coming back as a citizen) at the car crossing for decades.
- bluGill 2y agoWrite your congress repetitiveness. So long as they think we are happy they won't do anything. If they think we are mad things will change. Make sure you get everyone else you know to write as well.
- scarface_74 2y agoIf your Congress person is Republican, they are much more afraid of being primaried by someone who tows the line and is being financed by Musk than their constituents.
- bluGill 2y agoAll congress persons are most afraid of voters. If voters do not care than those other people withholding money can cost them an election, but they will betray anyone else if their voters care about the issue. They can find money from other sources - or even beg for forgiveness and get the money anyway.
- scarface_74 2y agoThe issue is if you are a Republican, you will never make it to the general election if you have to compete in the primaries against someone who is further to the right and endorsed by Trump/Musk. You can’t get enough money to compete against Musk and the true MAGAs who vote in the primaries and forgive anything that Trump does.
- bluGill 2y agoThere are very few areas where a democrat can't win with just a small shift in voters. Get 5% of republicans mad enough to stay home (or maybe vote third party) and that changes the outcome - not to mention independents who change their vote, or democrats who might get mad enough to go vote even if they think they don't have a chance.
- maximilianburke 2y agoCompletely understandable. Why would I, as a Canadian who sees stories coming from the US of fellow citizens getting hoovered up into the bowels of ICE from border crossings, want to go to the US when I have a choice not to?
- whatshisface 2y agoSince US citizens have no reason not to visit Canada (unless you count the return crossing), I suppose this will strengthen the already very healthy international conferences taking place there.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y agoThe return crossing is a huge concern. I have already decided I am not comfortable taking any international trips for the foreseeable future. I do not need thugs at the border to give me a hard time because they feel empowered to do whatever they want. My non-white (but Americans born) partner is even more concerned. Sure, they have to let you back into the country, but they can make it painful.
- scarface_74 2y agoAs an American citizen, you can refuse to have your electronics searched to reenter the US. I flew back in from Costa Rica to ATL and went through customs. Nothing has changed. I’m flying into BUF in July and taking a cab to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls and back. We will see what happens.
- suzzer99 2y agoYou can refuse, but does that mean 8 hours on a hard plastic chair in a waiting room?
- vkou 2y agoFor a regime that's brazenly breaking the law, the upper boundary to what they can do to you is unlimited. If they can put people onto an airplane and fly them to a Salvadoran gulag in the middle of recess in a court case about how they can't do that - and then laugh about it - the law is very clearly not a limit they care about. I have doubts that waving your passport or your service medals in their face will at the end of the day, prove very convincing either.
- tqi 2y agoThe magnitude is surprising for this to be attributed to the trade dispute - I wonder if this is primarily due to immigration concerns? I know a lot of folks on H-1B visas from Canada, and I imagine for those folks any non-essential international travel would seem overly risky.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoAre Americans not aware that their head of state is threatening to annex us? Oh, and judging from social media comments, his supporters think this is a really nifty, clever idea. Why do you think this is about a trade dispute?
- kridsdale1 2y agoExactly. It’s being felt the same way Georgia and Ukraine have come to feel about Russia. The US can no longer be trusted. They’ve squandered a century of friendship. For nothing.
- ks2048 2y ago> For nothing. "Nothing" for most people, but for those building a fascist state, it's for lots of power and money. Being a bully, making people pick sides (even for ridiculous things), making people fear your personal police/border force, etc - all part of the dictator playbook.
- llm_nerd 2y agoGiven the history of the United States, and the stark political division, it's for less than nothing: The coarse they have set is one that is absolutely guaranteed to lead to civil war and dissolution. Any American that actually thought you had a pretty decent country in decades past needs to seriously consider acquiring firearms, and this isn't an exaggeration. And really, the not-into-a-corrupt-idiocracy states -- one where lawless will-enslave-people-for-$ garbage like El Salvador and Russia are your besties -- should be openly talking about secession. The right likes to pretend it's unthinkable when the so-called "blue states" broach it, yapping some "indivisible!" line, but Texas has spent every Democrat government with in the open secession planning. Abbott was busy setting up Texas "consulates" of sorts, preparing to be their own little country. All because equal rights and healthcare offend them so. Now there's a grotesquely incompetent group of criminal grifters and clowns talking about abolishing federal courts, completely annihilating the constitution, and openly joking about invading literal allies. Mix in some advertising of their shitcoin crypto and getting rid of the gold stockpile for Bitcoin. It's your time, blue states. What the hell are you waiting for?
- thomassmith65 2y agoYes, but the important thing is which country's travel industry is hurting more than the other's /s Edit: The system is rigged. This comment actually received hundreds of upvotes.
- michaelbuckbee 2y agoI help run a small annual founders retreat with around 20 other folks, and this is the first year we have zero Canadians attending (typically ~25%). These are folks I know and talk to, and they're not even so much explicitly boycotting the US as the rhetoric is enough that they just feel sort of uncomfortable and unwelcome.
- yabones 2y agoExactly. Even though I'm fairly confident that I wouldn't be detained at the border under dubious pretexts, and reasonably sure I wouldn't get black-bagged by ICE agents, the thought of being around a population who largely support going to war with my country isn't a comfortable experience. I've been to the northern US before and largely had no issues, but driving around with Ontario plates now that 30-50% of the population has been told to hate me isn't inviting.
- Carrok 2y agoI promise you, despite whatever you've read or polls you've seen, Americans do not "largely support" going to war with Canada.
- senderista 2y agoThey don't support it, but they mostly don't care about it (or rather Trump's threats to do so) either. Otherwise Trump's approval rating would not be around 50%.
- irrational 2y agoHardly anyone is protesting in the streets about it. There are protests, but they are a minuscule percentage of the population. Not protesting is basically supporting, just like not voting is basically supporting whoever wins.
- Carrok 2y ago> Not protesting is basically supporting If you want to live in a world as black and white and clear cut as this, I don't think anything I can say will stop you. Needless to say, it's not that simple.
- sho_hn 2y agoI have to say as someone living outside the US, it's been great. The calendar over here is filling up to the brim with exciting events and conferences that can't risk being held in the US anymore.
- 0_____0 2y agoWhat conferences, if you're comfortable sharing? Or at least what category?
- LPisGood 2y agoPeople have said this a lot online, but as someone that attends conferences I am not familiar with any conferences that didn’t previously meet outside of USA ditching USA.
- daveguy 2y agoYup. Not a lot of them will ditch the USA on existing scheduled conferences. They'll just see their attendance plummet. It'll take at least a year for them to move venues. The amount of planning required for conferences is not minimal, and they are planned at least 1 year in advance. You will see the effect in 2026 and if you think conferences won't move over the next 2 years you're fooling yourself. Trump and his incompetence is fkn the United States. He thinks he's tough. Maga thinks he's tough. He's a clown.
- jszymborski 2y agoAnecdata: I had booked an international conference in New York state that I've cancelled because of the trade war and threats to our sovereignty. If it were held in a country with a friendlier government, I would have gone.
- deskr 2y agoIt it extraordinary watching a small team lead by a convicted felon tear down the US from the inside with seemingly full authority.
- twothreeone 2y agoHistory repeats?
- littlestymaar 2y ago“The first time as a tragedy, and the second time as a farce”
- wg0 2y agoThe most corrupt immoral indecent stupid lunatic ever to rule in US history.
- genocidicbunny 2y agoAn extremely important point to add -- it's a small team, but cheered by a huge proportion of the US population.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y agoNot with those popularity figures, there aren't. Reality is there are zero pro-Trump rallies, and plenty of very angry former Trump voters making their rage felt at Town Halls. This will only get worse over time as cuts to essential services start to bite hard. I've said all along I think the MAGA cult thing is going to blow up in the faces of the people making this happen.
- genocidicbunny 2y agoI live relatively close to a fairly red-voting area of the state, and have talked to some of the people at those town halls. I got the impression that for many, their rage isn't that Trump's admin is doing these things, but that they're doing these things to them. The subtext of course is that it'd be fine if it was only happening to other people, as long as their lives weren't affected. Anecdotally, only one person I talked to was willing to admit that they would have voted differently if they knew what was actually to come (which they should have given the first take at his presidency.) Also anecdotally, many that do seem to be raging at what's happening at the federal level don't have much concern with their local politicians being cut from more or less the same cloth. Granted the local ones, especially in lower-population areas, know they might actually have to face their constituents in their day-to-day lives, so tend to spout rhetoric without acting much on it, so there's less to rage about at them. > I've said all along I think the MAGA cult thing is going to blow up in the faces of the people making this happen. Maybe, but unfortunately we're all in the last radius.
- JTbane 2y agoAs an American I have mad respect for Canadians (and Europeans) that stand up to the total political destruction that is happening.
- tim333 2y agoAs a semi European it's a bit bizarre. There's a probably more of a worry with the physical destruction in Ukraine which is also semi Europe. I'd be nice if as a condition for peace talks Trump could require the Russians to stop sending missiles into apartment blocks and similar civilian targets.
- ible 2y agoIt may not be obvious if you are in the US but the reaction of Canadians to Trump’s 51st state garbage is extremely strong in Canada. The tariffs are one thing, and pissed people off, but the rhetoric is what has really done the damage. It’s viewed as a complete betrayal, and as a real and serious threat to Canadian sovereignty. I work for an American company from Canada, and have changed my financial planning because I’m not sure if I’ll be able to keep doing that. When I see a 70% drop I’m surprised it isn’t more.
- apercu 2y agoI spent ~18 years in Canada, and my professional network is strongest there. I've lost 60% of my pipeline of leads since December.
- scarface_74 2y agoI live in Florida and follow local news. There are snowbirders who have come here for years. But now are thinking about going somewhere else for the winter. But not just because of the news. They are actually being treated differently by people they use to consider friends because their friends are believing everything they hear and read. Now, they are looking to spend winter in Costa Rica and Panama City.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoHave you heard any interest in Cuba by chance? I'm curious if the anti Florida sentiment gives the island a tourism bump.
- JustExAWS 2y agoThere is way too much red tape for an American to visit Cuba.
- howard941 2y agoCoincidentally (not meaning to pick on you) my next door neighbor vacations in Cuba. Loves it.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoI meant Canadians traveling to Cuba instead of Florida.
- scarface_74 2y agoI live in Orlando and interact with lots of tourists including Canadians. It’s mostly the older Canadians who are snowbirders who are thinking about Costa Rica. In fact, in a few years, my wife and I are thinking about snow birding in Costa Rica from Florida for a few months and eventually establishing permanent residency down there while still keeping our Florida home. I’m more than willing to pay into their government run healthcare - Caja.
- 2y ago
- rcpt 2y agoMy parents cancelled their European vacation this summer because they're embarrassed
- tarkin2 2y agoPeople would be friendly and polite on the whole, a few standoffish and curious about your political leanings. Most places would just want the tourist cash in all honesty
- reaperducer 2y agoThat must be new. I was an American in Austria during the first Gulf War, and people were pretty hostile to both me and my wife. But then, Austria does tend to its own thing.
- M3L0NM4N 2y agoNot a completely rational reason to cancel your vacation, to be honest.
- rcpt 2y agoYou go on vacation to enjoy yourself. It's hard to enjoy yourself when you are embarrassed. Why don't you think this is rational?
- bandinobaddies 2y agoPlenty of US citizens are canceling their vacations because they are afraid of reciprocity of treatment by immigration and people in other countries. And some US citizens, yes citizens especially immigrants & minorities, are also worried about abuse by border patrol upon their return. No one wants to go on a vacation where they have to deal with unnecessary stress.
- hello_computer 2y agoYes! Only 30%, 50 states, and all of the other countries to go!
- stego-tech 2y agoI've been working on an essay since last week that lays out my own personal take on things: We're (the US) are done. We're cooked. We have destroyed critical institutions and burned through all remaining international goodwill we had in less than a hundred days. No amount of judicial reversals can undo the harm done. It would take years of concentrated, uninterruptible effort to mend that damage, and that's assuming we start today. This is just one more sign of things to come as the world (finally? belatedly? regrettably?) reorients into a multi-pole system again, and migrate away from American Hegemony. The ball has already started rolling abroad in terms of divesting away from US Clouds, and that'll just keep snowballing as time goes on; after all, once orgs realize how easy it is to leave AWS or Azure for something more local, they'll also reconsider the value of Oracle/Salesforce/IBM/Dell/etc. It's going to be a painful decade ahead of the USA. The real winners will be the governments and companies abroad who seize upon this opportunity to grab US talent and help them immigrate to safer countries, especially LGBTQ+ and minority groups who are already being victimized (similar to how the US benefited from immigrants fleeing Nazi Germany in/before WW2).
- bovermyer 2y agoAre you planning on posting that essay online when it's done?
- stego-tech 2y agoYeah, but my writing style on personal projects comes in fits. I'm 2100 words in and only just got to the section on immediately visible effects of these policies, like the EU scouting domestic cloud capacity; this will be added to said section, obviously, along with other travel or commercial data I can get my hands on. The CTA portion is pretty straightforward though, and worth sharing now: stop trying to revive a rotting corpse (America), and start figuring out what we can build to replace it that addresses its flaws and harms. Now's the time to do the big, hard work like equal rights, universal healthcare, eliminating monopolies, fixing taxation, limiting scope of government structures, reforming the MIC, streamlining immigration, protecting workers, etc, because the America of old is dead. Grab the Constitution, hold a Congress of representatives put forward by like-minded states, and rebuild. It's what the Founding Fathers intended, after all, when their grand experiment finally ran its course. It wasn't the final deliverable, just version 1.0 - so now let's sit down and write version 2.0, a modern Constitution for a modern people.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- LetMePostMore 2y agoWhy aren't airlines drastically cutting back their scheduled flights if there has been such a drop in demand?
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe linked article (https://www.oag.com/blog/canada-us-airline-capacity-aviation-market https://www.oag.com/blog/canada-us-airline-capacity-aviation...) says they have. > the table below shows that over 320,000 seats have been removed by airlines operating between the two countries through to the end of October And given the focus is on summer flights that haven't happened yet, those cutbacks would largely be in the future.
- jpollock 2y agoAirlines have a certain number of landing slots and check in counters. If they give up their slots, they may have a very difficult time getting them back. The A380 was built to get around landing slot rules.
- margalabargala 2y agoA few possibilities. It may be that your question is fundamentally not based in fact. You ask "why aren't they doing X", as though it were certain that they were not doing X. This may not be the case. Airlines may indeed have adjusted their scheduling. It may simply be that not enough time has passed for the shift to affect scheduling. It may be that airlines view the current state of affairs as temporary. Airport gate spots are difficult to come by, and one airline cutting flights grants those gate slots to a competitor, so they may think it's more profitable in the long run to take the short term hit until the international situation changes via election, impeachment, natural causes, or conquest.
- footy 2y agoCanadian ones are.
- throw7 2y agoLook up Jasmine Mooney. If you do not have a pristine visa and completely clean record I wouldn't travel into the U.S. It makes no sense to take unnecessary risks for a holiday vacation.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoSadly, if you have had a visa application denied before, it is very hard to get a new one - in any country. We don't have the full story of that case (only her side), but I am guessing that she may have known this and been less than honest when she was applying for her second visa about that denial. Still it's hard to know without confirmation.
- tim333 2y agoReading between the lines, she had her visa cancelled previously. She then seems to have flown from Canada to Mexico and applied at the border and I'm guessing this bit but probably filled the form wrong like not saying about the cancelled visa. Then the mucked up bit is rather than just refused entry she was put down for deportation but Mexico doesn't take non Mexican deportees so she ended up in the nasty holding system for illegal immigrants there. The US banned her from entering for five years so I think there must have been an error/deception on the application. I guess the answer if you are Canadian is sort it out at the embassy or if you are chancing things do it at the Canada/US border not the Mexican one.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoThat sounds about right to me. This was also her third denial of the same kind of visa, and she was spending an awfully long time in Mexico for someone who is not a resident of Mexico. On further reading, it's possible that she was deported through this process because Mexico didn't want her back - most countries will look at you very differently if any other country has denied you a visa.
- bsimpson 2y agoI had to check if that was the British couchsurfer who got arrested because they said tidying up her hosts' home demanded a work visa. There are a scary number of people being detained for bullshit reasons.
- nashashmi 2y agoGoing overseas currently and we are spooked by the airport customs check on the way back despite being a citizen. I am sure many feel the same.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y agoIf a customs officer decided to dispute your citizenship, what would happen then? Would your citizen rights disappear and then you could have no way to defend your position? Purely hypothetical as I can't see why customs officers would want to deny citizens entry (providing they're not racist etc).
- genocidicbunny 2y ago> Purely hypothetical as I can't see why customs officers would want to deny citizens entry (providing they're not racist etc). Well, you already provided one answer to your own question. But another is that plenty of people in law enforcement in the US are there because they want to have power over people, CBP included. So why would they deny entry, or make it a hassle? Cus it's fun to them to have the ability to ruin someone's day on a tiny whim; It makes them feel powerful.
- csa 2y ago> Would your citizen rights disappear and then you could have no way to defend your position? They would be delayed. They can/will detain you for made-up reasons if they want to. Simple example: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna195406 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna195406 Folks I know who are concerned about this: - folks of Latino heritage - folks with African (black and Arab) or Asian (East, South… really all of it) heritage - naturalized citizens - Muslims - anyone who may share a name with a criminal immigrant by coincidence —- I have a super Anglo name, but I was almost locked up once by police for sharing a name with a guy with a long rap sheet Eventually your rights will come around, but they can put those on hold for way longer than one may want. Another simple example — an acquaintance of mine was arrested for dui on a Friday night. He was “lost” in the system for four days, and that was with people at the jail ready to pay bail the next morning. It turns out that he was to be released without bail after he sobered up, but… whoopsie. He has no recourse, and those four days in jail were not good for his mental health.
- rapind 2y agoAs a Canadian I'm not comfortable taking my kids to the states. We had Florida booked for march break (booked it back in October), but we cancelled. We did something else instead, and the kids had fun, so w/e. It's just not that compelling to visit the states right now. There are a lot of alternatives. I actually do think we're being too cautious, but I just didn't want to have to follow the reality tv show you call news to see which way the wind was blowing every day.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoI see two types of comments from Americans in online forums like this when the topic of the new US government's comments about annexing Canada come up: "Come on, you can't be taking that seriously" "That's not serious" "It's a joke" -- US liberals and some "moderate" Republicans or "You deserve it" "<something something dairy tariffs>" "It will happen" -- GOP voters, MAGA types And then there's question about why Canadians might not be coming to the US and are boycotting US products? The level of discourse is beyond disheartening, and I expected better from this forum of all places. Comments made by official head of state, and agreed to by his entire cabinet. Including by Marco Rubio while on Canadian soil for a G7 conference. Consider an incident like this: https://www.montrealgazette.com/news/provincial-news/article794964.html https://www.montrealgazette.com/news/provincial-news/article... By the head of U.S. Homeland Security. Not Trump. Yeah, we just can't take the joke. Trust, and travel and full trade, will be restored when we see Americans deal with the mess they've made at home, and stop acting in this fashion. In the meantime in the words of a rather awful but funny Canadian We've "got more than enough to eat at home"
- tdeck 2y agoThe media actually seem to be doing a worse job than the first Trump term, which is rather surprising.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoI saw an article the other day about how there was suddenly a non-shortage of fancy bourbons on store shelves in the US. How before the rare bottles were order only and marked up extremely high and not available, but now you could just get them on sale right off the shelf. All of this was reported with a bit of speculation here and there but not once mentioning what is the most likely reason: The largest liquor importer in the world (Ontario LCBO) just removed all American products from its shelves and in some cases was even able to return those products back to the distributor with refund. Those products are on American shelves because they are no long being sold to non-Americans. Because of actions by the Trump regime. Not mentioned in the article I read (major US newspaper) I also saw a series of articles about oceanside properties in Maine being in trouble because their Quebecois regulars are cancelling bookings for this summer. They kept saying it was about tariffs. I didn't see a single article that mentioned annexation threats and digs at our sovereignty. It's really weird, the selective blindness. I think US moderates want so badly for things to be relatively normal that they can't take this stuff seriously or it's a complete demoralization. That and the press is completely under his thumb this time around.
- nukem222 2y ago[dead]
- vkou 2y agoThe better question is why the other 30% is still there? Why would any sane person give a broken penny to a country where ~half the population voted to subjugate you, and the other half won't lift a finger to rein them in?
- pixelfarmer 2y agoSo that is how the US is helping with reaching the climate goals ...
- kashunstva 2y agoDual U.S./Canadian citizen: in theory I don’t think my family and I are at much risk in traveling back to the United States. But we’re not motivated by fear so much as just generalized dismay and a desire to keep my loonies on this side of the border
- nsavage 2y agoAs a Canadian who lives near the border (as many do), my family and I have been shopping in the US for decades. Covid already put a dent in that, but I can't see ever doing that again. As comparison, my dad remembers going weekly to the US for grocery shopping.
- senderista 2y agoWe live near the border and (before COVID) had Canadian friends we would visit regularly, and they us. It's heartbreaking to think we might never get to see them again.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoAmericans are very welcome in Canada. Come visit. We just don't want to spend our money there, or be around MAGA apologists.
- senderista 2y agoBTW some of the most hardcore Trump-supporting areas in western WA are right by the border (Trump even did a rally in Lynden). I wonder how Trump supporters there feel about this?
- vkou 2y agoIf Point Roberts business owners are a weathervane for them, they are blaming Biden and Trudeau, of course. It's amazing how well they can project the direct consequences of their actions onto some other people.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoTrudeau stepping out is the best thing to happen on both sides of the border because it eliminates a whole class of ridiculous meme/copy-paste-talking-points. I never liked the guy, or voted for him, but the level of discussion whenever his name came up was unreasonable and toxic.
- buyucu 2y agooffff, that is a lot. is there any data on which direction is impacted more?
- lifestyleguru 2y agoOne simply doesn't start talking about annexing territories of other countries. This makes you Russia.
- IIsi50MHz 2y agoI was going to say "or China", but then I remembered they do it differently: they say "is and always has been China".
- logifail 2y agoI know this is just two anecdotes, but: I flew into the US two weeks ago and the immigration queue was a) short and b) the officers were super-friendly, I did my Global Entry interview on arrival, was basically a quickly friendly chat plus a photo and fingerprints. Way better than it was a year ago the last time I entered the USA. My wife flew into the US earlier today and the immigration process "took seconds" (her words). I understand that people have concerns about the "new management" but - as always - don't believe everything you read in the media.
- CoastalCoder 2y agoI think the main concern is what the probability / details are for the non-happy-path processes.
- logifail 2y ago> what the probability / details are for the non-happy-path processes Why would one expect to enter a country via a "non-happy-path" and expect a happy outcome? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald-guardian-partner-detained-heathrow https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwal... "The partner of the Guardian journalist who has written a series of stories revealing mass surveillance programmes by the US National Security Agency was held for almost nine hours on Sunday by UK authorities as he passed through London's Heathrow airport on his way home to Rio de Janeiro. David Miranda, who lives with Glenn Greenwald, was returning from a trip to Berlin when he was stopped by officers at 8.05am and informed that he was to be questioned under schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000. The controversial law, which applies only at airports, ports and border areas, allows officers to stop, search, question and detain individuals. The 28-year-old was held for nine hours, the maximum the law allows before officers must release or formally arrest the individual. According to official figures, most examinations under schedule 7 – over 97% – last less than an hour, and only one in 2,000 people detained are kept for more than six hours. Miranda was released, but officials confiscated electronics equipment including his mobile phone, laptop, camera, memory sticks, DVDs and games consoles." The non-happy-path didn't start under the current POTUS...
- YooLi 2y ago- What are the numbers for the years previously? - What are the numbers for travel to other countries/locations? - What's the breakdown between flights originating in Canada or US? Hard to draw real conclusions without all data, but easy to make something clickable.
- r00fus 2y agoThere is no question that the consequences of the actions by this US administration is resulting in dropping sales, dropping traffic, and likely an upcoming huge stock market crash. Given this is an obvious outcome, the question remains - what purpose does that serve?
- kristopolous 2y agoThey're conspiracy brained monarchists and eugenicists. Go listen to knowledge fight if you want. The Trump fans are over the moon on him right now. They are besides themselves in jubilation. If you're looking for a rationalization you aren't going to find it. They believe in the supernatural, pseudoscience, and conspiracies. Their assessments are based on a collective imagination, not on any material reality. That's why accelerationism or collapsing under the weight of the contradictions doesn't and won't happen. New imaginations to rationalize will simply be invented And when it's not possible they always have their scapegoats. For instance, https://www.oann.com/ https://www.oann.com/ lead story as I write this isn't about the leaked Signal controversy but instead about Obama and George Soros
- anal_reactor 2y ago> and likely an upcoming huge stock market crash. Most likely US can survive bullying one ex-ally at a time.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- morkalork 2y agoYou are aware that the list of countries issuing travel advisories for the United States gets longer every day right? It's in the news. Also the casual threats of our sovereignty... definitely not going over well.
- S0y 2y agoI'm not sure why so much of the comments are about fear of being detained at the border. I'm Canadian, and it's pretty clear to me that most of us just don't want to give the US our business anymore. At least as long as this whole trade war thing is going on.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoBecause the stuff that is dominating the news cycle in the US is all about ICE detentions and deportations. That's what's going on domestically. (That and the Signal fiasco) Canada itself is barely a blip on most people's radar, as usual. Many Americans don't seem to have noticed that their official head of state is threatening to annex us and that it's not a joke.
- bcrl 2y agoAnd this is why Canadians are deeply concerned. Nobody is reigning in your leaders that are continuing to frequently repeat comments about annexing Canada and using economic force to do so. I've traveled to the US extensively for work in the past. It's the most inward facing country I have ever seen. The international news items that virtually every other western country reports on the front page of news reports get buried in the USA. Everything we see shows that Americans just don't care about the impact of their actions on people outside of their country, even when those actions are military invasion. It's deeply disturbing to Canadians.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoTheir leaders. I'm Canadian :-) But you're right.
- cmurf 2y agoIt's hybrid warfare. Putin wants to break up western alliances, and wouldn't mind a U.S. civil war. He got Trump to say this by saying it's genius. Trump is this gullible, stupid and insane.
- jpambrun 2y agoI am Canadian. I just went to Australia and hearing Americans talking politics on the next table over at the restaurant was maddening. At this point, the idea of being surrounded by Americans feels extremely uncomfortable.
- BonoboIO 2y agoI have my own company and can work from anywhere where I have internet. At this moment I would not enter the USA, if maybe checking my email is considered working. Just the fear of being stuck for weeks, nope. Never visited the USA, and probably will hold that for a few years.
- Trasmatta 2y agoWhy would you want to visit a country that's actively threatening to annex you?
- gruez 2y agoMaybe you should ask the same question to all the people in Taiwan who traveled to the mainland. >Close to 3 million Taiwanese have travelled to mainland China for tourism, study and work this year, according to official data from Beijing. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3283272/beijing-hails-cross-strait-policies-taiwanese-visitor-numbers-residence-bids-surge https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3283272/bei... And unlike the US, China is actually engaged in live fire exercises around the island: https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20241019_CNM989.png https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20241019_CNM...
- heresie-dabord 2y ago"We had a valid trade agreement that we negotiated, but now we will tariff your economy into recession. Or you can join us." "You don't want to join us? Have more tariffs!" "You are fighting back with tariffs? Have more tariffs!" "You are discussing increasing trade with others? What happened to our friendship?!"
- LanceJones 2y agoI'm one such person. I just visited because the weather was incredible and the people were/are fabulous.
- BarryMilo 2y agoCanadian here: I don't know how anyone can be surprised.
- tombert 2y agoDecidedly not surprised, at least on my end. I wouldn't want to visit a country whose leadership is casually hinting at colonizing me and weaponizing tariffs either.
- LanceJones 2y agoThe "country" is hinting? What exactly does that look like? The Americans I just spent a week with were lovely.
- tombert 2y agoI'll edit; the leadership is hinting. To be clear, I'm an American, I was born in the US and I live in the US. I think that the US leaders should stop with the stupid tariffs and stop threatening to annex Canada and Greenland.
- tgma 2y agoI'll bite: regardless of your emotions, 70% drop in almost any established process would be surprising. It's not like Trump hasn't been POTUS before either. That said, it seems like the figure is simply some estimate from an analytics/forecasting shop, not authoritative data. Reminds me of folks who (mis-)predict Apple revenues based on component manufacturer's output reduction. I call bullshit on the OAG estimate. We'll see...
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoI don't think anyone is really surprised. My hope is just that the US gets its comeuppance and at one point realizes that if you piss off every single one of your allies for no good reason, eventually they all realize it's cheaper to just dump your assholish ways, regardless of your economic prowess. I've never been so deeply ashamed of my country as now, and primarily not because of Trump, but because either (a) so many people just actively cheer this on (like before he went on his tirade most MAGA people probably wouldn't have a bad thought at all about Canadians) or (b) the people that obviously know how stupid this all is are being quiet in the stereotypical "for evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing" way.
- tombert 2y agoWho would have thought that actively antagonizing one of our biggest trading partners while also hitting them with a bunch of tariffs to use as some leverage to try get them to join the US would make them unlikely to want to visit the US? It's almost like nearly everyone on earth thought it was really dumb except Donald Trump.
- MegaButts 2y agoIf you look at this from the perspective of Trump wanting to destabilize the USA geopolitically and internally (for whatever reason), it seems he's been incredibly successful. I'm not saying Trump is smart but if you look at this from another angle he's incredibly effective.
- tombert 2y agoI mean, that's the most positive spin for it I've ever heard. Maybe he's shorted every major company in the US that would be affected by these stupid tariffs.
- MegaButts 2y agoThere are many people who think Trump is a Russian asset. If you look at it that way, he's been pretty great for Putin.
- tombert 2y agoI have no idea if that's true. Regardless if it's because of secret intelligence on Putin's end or incompetence on Trump's end, it really doesn't change anything on my end, the effect is pretty much the same. We still have effectively actively antagonized one of our largest trading partners for no obvious reasons and reneged on our own trading agreements.
- MegaButts 2y agoIf you view Trump as your enemy, understanding him matters if you intend to fight him. To be clear, I'm not saying Trump is a Russian asset. I was just changing the perspective because I think it's interesting all the things he's doing make perfect sense for helping Russia. In which case he'd be effective instead of incompetent.
- LanceJones 2y agoVictoria-based Canadian here. Just back from a week in Palm Springs and a road trip to Disneyland. Met lots of visiting Canadians and talked to lots of Americans. Much of the discussion was around the horrible currency exchange rate. Why doesn't the article get into that?
- swyx 2y agohorrible exchange rate? you mean the 1.43 USDCAD, where its been since Dec 2024, and where it was in 2003, and is on the higher end of the very tight 1.25-1.40 range that it's been for the last 10 years? that horrible exchange rate? as a former currency trader, common people are horrible at blaming macroeconomic things for idiosyncratic situations
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoYes, horrible exchange rate. I was going to say you're cherry picking your stats, but it's more like you're cherry picking your conclusion. Just look at a graph of the USD CAD exchange rate over the past 25 years - the current rate looks pretty horrible to me, and while it's been bad before it's currently near the worst it's been in 25 years.
- mebazaa 2y agoImportant to note that Air Canada is denying the magnitude of the drop: https://thepointsguy.com/news/airlines-cut-canada-flights-bookings-plummet/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/airlines-cut-canada-flights-bo... > Air Canada, the largest airline by seats between the U.S. and Canada, disagrees with the analysis. > "We can confirm that [the preliminary OAG data] is not reflective of Air Canada's booking patterns, nor the state of the market, based on all information sources available to us," an Air Canada spokesperson said.
- spacemadness 2y agoDon't they have a lot to lose if stock analysts respond to the drop, though?
- darth_avocado 2y agoAs much as people are putting this on tariffs, I would not be surprised if a big contributor to this is actually the increase in people being detained on the border. Stricter immigration enforcement can be a huge deterrent to travel.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoI don't think people are saying it's just the tariffs. It's the tariffs, it's the numerous threats to annex Canada, and it's the fact that the US has made it clear that if you're a non-citizen that you can be detained and held in prison for weeks with no due process before being deported. I think you'd have to be a bit nuts to visit the US now if you didn't have specific obligations or if you had other options.
- throwawaysleep 2y agoI have friends who work for CBC/Radio Canada (public broadcaster here). Someone recently asked at an all hands meeting whether there were contingency plans if Trump tried to shut down the CBC by telling AWS to cut their servers (they apparently use AWS). No shit that travel is down. People casually ponder in conversation up here whether there will be a war with the USA. Our newspaper of record has published op-eds saying Canada needs nuclear weapons.