8 ms·

So it's early Monday morning (well - early for me, I'm not really a morning person), and I'd love to have some good excuse for why I didn't do the 6.14 release

So it's early Monday morning (well - early for me, I'm not really a morning person), and I'd love to have some good excuse for why I didn't do the 6.14 release yesterday on my regular Sunday afternoon release schedule. I'd like to say that some important last-minute thing came up and delayed things. But no. It's just pure incompetence. Because absolutely nothing last-minute happened yesterday, and I was just clearing up some unrelated things in order to be ready for the merge window. And in the process just entirely forgot to actually ever cut the release. D'oh. Relatable

cube00 2y ago
> But no. It's just pure incompetence. While I don't agree with how he conducts himself on the mailing lists; I respect he uses the same language when talking about himself.
- ASalazarMX 2y ago
  Does he willingly take that treatment from others? I don't really know, but that would be the actual test of congruence.
  - SEGyges 2y ago
    I am not deep into the Linus weeds but my impression is that he doesn't especially care if he's on the receiving end of this. It only started to feel different from "well, the Linux list is the PvP zone" when Linus was sufficiently weighty/famous that you almost had to take an insult from him to heart, and he did eventually correct his behavior there.
    - ASalazarMX 2y ago
      I'm also not that of a fan to know that many details, but I'd place my bets in that he actually doesn't care if people speak to him the same way, as long as they have solid arguments. I think Linus is overall one of the goods influences in this strange IT period.
  - foresto 2y ago
    I don't follow the lkml enough to highlight a pattern, but this recent exchange comes to mind: On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 8:52 PM Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote: > Jason. This smells. It's BS. On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 at 11:57, Jason A. Donenfeld <Jason@zx2c4.com> wrote: > It's not BS. And that's not a real argument from you, but rather is something else. On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 at 12:19, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote: > Bah. I guess I'll have to walk through the patch series once again. > I'm still not thrilled about it. But I'll give it another go. > Linus https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/7/4/1208 https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/7/4/1208
- jchw 2y ago
  You know, though, his conduct nowadays isn't really that bad; I don't think I'd be bothered by it in a workplace environment. He makes strong assertions, but not mean-spirited, and I think Linus has a lot of reasons to feel highly confident when he makes strong assertions when it comes to Linux. Of course, there are some moments, but almost everybody has their moments. When push comes to shove, Linus seems to handle the important things pretty well.
  - kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
    [dead]
  - maccard 2y ago
    > I don’t think I’d be bothered by it in a workplace environment https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 This was a month ago. I wouldn’t stand for this in a company I worked for.
    - jchw 2y ago
      I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty about how they're feeling regarding something. In some places, people have communicated with me with that level of honesty. It does require you to make sure you're not taking things personally when they're not meant to be, but it's a lot better than people trading subtle cues all the time, which seems to just lead to more explosive issues later on when things inevitably hit a breaking point. Where do you really feel this message goes too far?
      - maccard 2y ago
        Right at the end > So next time you want to write an email to complain about rust support: take a look in the mirror. > Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  One does not get a pass on being rude and hurtful to others by speaking about themselves negatively. The fundamental thing that people never seem to understand in the "Linus is being an asshole" vs "I love Linus, he tells it like he is and to manage a project you have to be willing to do that!" debate is that it is completely unnecessary to speak at all about someone's person on a mailing list like lkml. "This code sucks!" - no. "This code does not meet the linux kernel's coding conventions, has race conditions, and this algorithm could likely be implemented in a far more performant way." "You're just WRONG" - no. "The position that you're being forced to learn a new programming language is not correct. You have not been asked to write or even understand Rust." I think the people who think 'you have to be that way to manage/lead' have never been under a good manager or leader and I daresay that a lot of people in technical supervisory and management positions unfortunately grew up respecting Linus and thinking his behavior was how you "get things done", not realizing that Linus's behavior almost certainly kept a lot of people from risking contributing and if anything has hurt the Linux kernel project - and kept people from feeling they could safely point out problems in someone's code because T'so is a great example; a huge ego. As a result, people simply have gone elsewhere to work on filesystems. The ext filesystem(s) were not terribly reliable or tolerant of real-world situations, is still not very performant, and has evolved at a glacial pace consistently lagging behind its peers.
- znpy 2y ago
  The guys is truly a beacon of fairness. Linux as a kernel will probably go downhill after we lose Linus. And I'm only 50% ironic/joking.
  - karunamurti 2y ago
    Yeah, GKH doesn't have the insult power of Linus. Can some Finnish people teach GKH on how to insult? I learned the word perkeleen vittupää from LKML.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  He named both git and Linux after himself.
- cedws 2y ago
  That’s usually how people like that are. They hold others to high standards because they hold themselves to high standards.
HPsquared 2y ago
The article helpfully informs us this note was written by the man himself, Linux Torvalds.
- npodbielski 2y ago
  Nice did not notice that. Good catch.
asah 2y ago
As I cross 40 years in this industry, I find that my procrastination often has subtle root causes. I assume others have the same experience. Currently, I've been putting off a long report for a few days and it's because I'm trying to balance a number of conclusions, tones, etc. When I'm ready, I'm ready.
- bombcar 2y ago
  I find that can be true - but I also sometimes just forget to hit submit.
- progmetaldev 2y ago
  For myself, I think it's just as much how to word things properly to most effectively get your point across, as it is to be ready if your report has some kind of backlash or isn't seen the way you meant it. You need to be mentally prepared to handle the response you get back, even if it's no response at all after you spent many hours putting a report together and worrying about how to make it just right. Obviously this will change depending on how important what you're reporting on is, and whether your work contributed to that report's findings.
lenerdenator 2y ago
He really has grown as a person. Ten years ago, there would have been no mention of it unless someone called it out, and the response to that would have boiled down to "f#ck off, it's free". ... Which also would have been relatable, and valid if we're being honest.
- caycep 2y ago
  I assume he takes advice/feedback i.e. the famous ESR post and the concerns from that contributor from intel and others to heart. Or at least has forced himself to learn how to do so.
- dagw 2y ago
  "f#ck off, it's free" is possibly an acceptable response if you're also working for free. If maintaining that free software is your job that you are getting paid good money to do, you really should hold yourself to higher standards.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Hm, depends on who is paying you, I think. If some philanthropist is paying you to make good free software, yes. But if you’re paid by stakeholders that want your maintenance to make sure they can use the free software themselves, you’re only really accountable to their opinions.
    - ahartmetz 2y ago
      It is really closer to the latter (Linux Foundation = the megacorporations LUG), but Linus seems to treat it as the former - in a good way.

cube00 2y ago

> But no. It's just pure incompetence. While I don't agree with how he conducts himself on the mailing lists; I respect he uses the same language when talking about himself.

ASalazarMX 2y ago
Does he willingly take that treatment from others? I don't really know, but that would be the actual test of congruence.
- SEGyges 2y ago
  I am not deep into the Linus weeds but my impression is that he doesn't especially care if he's on the receiving end of this. It only started to feel different from "well, the Linux list is the PvP zone" when Linus was sufficiently weighty/famous that you almost had to take an insult from him to heart, and he did eventually correct his behavior there.
  - ASalazarMX 2y ago
    I'm also not that of a fan to know that many details, but I'd place my bets in that he actually doesn't care if people speak to him the same way, as long as they have solid arguments. I think Linus is overall one of the goods influences in this strange IT period.
- foresto 2y ago
  I don't follow the lkml enough to highlight a pattern, but this recent exchange comes to mind: On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 8:52 PM Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote: > Jason. This smells. It's BS. On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 at 11:57, Jason A. Donenfeld <Jason@zx2c4.com> wrote: > It's not BS. And that's not a real argument from you, but rather is something else. On Thu, 4 Jul 2024 at 12:19, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote: > Bah. I guess I'll have to walk through the patch series once again. > I'm still not thrilled about it. But I'll give it another go. > Linus https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/7/4/1208 https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/7/4/1208
jchw 2y ago
You know, though, his conduct nowadays isn't really that bad; I don't think I'd be bothered by it in a workplace environment. He makes strong assertions, but not mean-spirited, and I think Linus has a lot of reasons to feel highly confident when he makes strong assertions when it comes to Linux. Of course, there are some moments, but almost everybody has their moments. When push comes to shove, Linus seems to handle the important things pretty well.
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
  [dead]
- maccard 2y ago
  > I don’t think I’d be bothered by it in a workplace environment https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 This was a month ago. I wouldn’t stand for this in a company I worked for.
  - jchw 2y ago
    I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty about how they're feeling regarding something. In some places, people have communicated with me with that level of honesty. It does require you to make sure you're not taking things personally when they're not meant to be, but it's a lot better than people trading subtle cues all the time, which seems to just lead to more explosive issues later on when things inevitably hit a breaking point. Where do you really feel this message goes too far?
    - maccard 2y ago
      Right at the end > So next time you want to write an email to complain about rust support: take a look in the mirror. > Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?
KennyBlanken 2y ago
One does not get a pass on being rude and hurtful to others by speaking about themselves negatively. The fundamental thing that people never seem to understand in the "Linus is being an asshole" vs "I love Linus, he tells it like he is and to manage a project you have to be willing to do that!" debate is that it is completely unnecessary to speak at all about someone's person on a mailing list like lkml. "This code sucks!" - no. "This code does not meet the linux kernel's coding conventions, has race conditions, and this algorithm could likely be implemented in a far more performant way." "You're just WRONG" - no. "The position that you're being forced to learn a new programming language is not correct. You have not been asked to write or even understand Rust." I think the people who think 'you have to be that way to manage/lead' have never been under a good manager or leader and I daresay that a lot of people in technical supervisory and management positions unfortunately grew up respecting Linus and thinking his behavior was how you "get things done", not realizing that Linus's behavior almost certainly kept a lot of people from risking contributing and if anything has hurt the Linux kernel project - and kept people from feeling they could safely point out problems in someone's code because T'so is a great example; a huge ego. As a result, people simply have gone elsewhere to work on filesystems. The ext filesystem(s) were not terribly reliable or tolerant of real-world situations, is still not very performant, and has evolved at a glacial pace consistently lagging behind its peers.
znpy 2y ago
The guys is truly a beacon of fairness. Linux as a kernel will probably go downhill after we lose Linus. And I'm only 50% ironic/joking.
- karunamurti 2y ago
  Yeah, GKH doesn't have the insult power of Linus. Can some Finnish people teach GKH on how to insult? I learned the word perkeleen vittupää from LKML.
throwaway48476 2y ago
He named both git and Linux after himself.
cedws 2y ago
That’s usually how people like that are. They hold others to high standards because they hold themselves to high standards.

HPsquared 2y ago

The article helpfully informs us this note was written by the man himself, Linux Torvalds.

npodbielski 2y ago
Nice did not notice that. Good catch.

asah 2y ago

As I cross 40 years in this industry, I find that my procrastination often has subtle root causes. I assume others have the same experience. Currently, I've been putting off a long report for a few days and it's because I'm trying to balance a number of conclusions, tones, etc. When I'm ready, I'm ready.

bombcar 2y ago
I find that can be true - but I also sometimes just forget to hit submit.
progmetaldev 2y ago
For myself, I think it's just as much how to word things properly to most effectively get your point across, as it is to be ready if your report has some kind of backlash or isn't seen the way you meant it. You need to be mentally prepared to handle the response you get back, even if it's no response at all after you spent many hours putting a report together and worrying about how to make it just right. Obviously this will change depending on how important what you're reporting on is, and whether your work contributed to that report's findings.

lenerdenator 2y ago

He really has grown as a person. Ten years ago, there would have been no mention of it unless someone called it out, and the response to that would have boiled down to "f#ck off, it's free". ... Which also would have been relatable, and valid if we're being honest.

caycep 2y ago
I assume he takes advice/feedback i.e. the famous ESR post and the concerns from that contributor from intel and others to heart. Or at least has forced himself to learn how to do so.
dagw 2y ago
"f#ck off, it's free" is possibly an acceptable response if you're also working for free. If maintaining that free software is your job that you are getting paid good money to do, you really should hold yourself to higher standards.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Hm, depends on who is paying you, I think. If some philanthropist is paying you to make good free software, yes. But if you’re paid by stakeholders that want your maintenance to make sure they can use the free software themselves, you’re only really accountable to their opinions.
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    It is really closer to the latter (Linux Foundation = the megacorporations LUG), but Linus seems to treat it as the former - in a good way.