3 ms·

It's high time that the EU retaliates and institutes similar demands for US travellers. India and China could do the same. Causing inconvenience to ordinary Am

It's high time that the EU retaliates and institutes similar demands for US travellers. India and China could do the same. Causing inconvenience to ordinary Americans is the only way that will get through the thick brains of US Congress, I am afraid. And this should have been done in retaliation ever since these measures were introduced.

mc32 2y ago
They’re not going to. They like/depend on travel dollars too much. We do too but don’t care because it’ll only be few people we don’t care about who stay away. In any case tourism is bad for the environment. Stay local, vacation locally be socially responsible.
- 1over137 2y ago
  >They’re not going to. They like/depend on travel dollars too much. Travel by Canadians (to USA) is down to covid-era lows.
- jajko 2y ago
  You overestimate the importance of US travelers and their money, that's just 4% of world population. We get plenty of internal cross border tourism and Asia is ramping up every year. But it ain't the best idea anyway, those americans that do travel abroad are mostly the saner ones and not avid trump voters. No point trying to target some rednecks that are trivial to manipulate via emotions whose farthest life trip was maybe to Tijuana.
gruez 2y ago
Your proposed response to civil liberties violations by the US is for EU countries to do the same? What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members?
- exe34 2y ago
  it's almost as if American citizens were responsible for who they elected.
  - mc32 2y ago
    True but only because the last guy as well as the gal they offered as alternatives were so out of touch. You can tell because now Newsom is singing a different tune. He even denies ever using the word “latinx” and Bernie now claims secure borders are a must… Don’t put people is a position where they will make a choice you (the other guys and gals) will regret. Don’t “dare” them.
    - lesuorac 2y ago
      Bernie was never big on immigration [1]. He's just big on being a decent person. So don't do things like store people on concrete floors under 24h lights. It doesn't mean that he wants unfettered immigration. > (2015) [2] So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. “Open borders?” he interjected. “No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.” The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. “I think from a moral responsibility, we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty,” he conceded, “but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer.” [1]: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/bernie-sanders-immigration-record-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/b... [2]:
    - exe34 2y ago
      "look at what you made me do" - the narcissist prayer.
  - harry_ord 2y ago
    Yes but not all of them, no need to drag every person into this.
    - 2y ago
- imcritic 2y ago
  His proposal was towards only U.S. nationals, to make them feel what they deserve.
  - gruez 2y ago
    My previous comment proposed something similar for Salvadoran travelers. To top it off, El Salvador's president has 90% approval rating, compared to trumps ~45%, so they arguably deserve it even more.
    - chirau 2y ago
      What are you talking about? El Salvador is not doing all this scrutiny on incoming travelers.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? For that case, try international sanctions - of which, yes, increasing visa requirements or banning entry bar special cases (say a Salvadorian having family in the EU) certainly is an option that should be discussed. The EU has strength through the size of its population and economy, and it's time we finally start playing our cards instead of just bending over.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    As someone who travels from the US to Europe a lot, my reaction would be sadly shrug my shoulders and not travel to the EU any longer if the requirements were as onerous as, say, China or Russia. (Letters from an organization, etc.) Yes, the UK put ETA in place but that's trivial and mostly symbolic. Took me about 2 minutes to complete which was mostly about grabbing my passport to get the number.
- tzs 2y ago
  > What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? That comparison doesn't really make sense. What mschuster91 proposed is that in response to the US mistreating EU visitors the EU should mistreat US visitors. It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. In your comparison it would be others responding to El Salvador mistreating its own citizens by also mistreating El Salvador's citizens. It is missing the crucial symmetry of a tit for tat.
  - the_other 2y ago
    Country B starts doing shady stuff. Country A wants to differentiate itself from B, to retain its A-ness. If A imposes policies that match B's, A becomes more like B. B has exerted soft power over A, and is now in a stronger position to take control of A than it was before.
  - latexr 2y ago
    > It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. And then the cycle of hate and harm becomes infinite. Or, in other words: > An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind.¹ Random US citizens are not at fault for random US border agents harming random EU citizens. By all means, have the EU refuse entry to US citizens, but treating them like the US does—imprisoning them for weeks—is unacceptable even in retaliation. ¹ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Individuals aren't, but US citizens, collectively, are at fault for the behavior of the US government.
- raducu 2y ago
  >. What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? Genuine curiosity, are you a Trump fan?
WhyNotHugo 2y ago
If someone behaves inadequately, you don’t teach them to behave better by imitating them. Causing inconvenience to average Americans won’t have any impact in the actions of their ruling class. In fact, they would likely spin that into propaganda against foreign countries.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > If someone behaves inadequately, you don’t teach them to behave better by imitating them. The status quo aka doing nothing hasn't worked either so far - to the contrary, with each administration, the bullshit increases. So, it's time to escalate - if the US doesn't learn the easy way, it takes more pressure.
redserk 2y ago
I don’t think that would do much. The states that went for Harris have a fairly higher degree of passport ownership than states that went to Trump. As someone who grew up in an area leaning hard conservative, the trope of “American who doesn’t travel outside of their state” exists for a reason and describes a lot of people. Extend that to international travel. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/SAVEact-tables.pdf https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/...
kasey_junk 2y ago
Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK all allow similar searches at the border. China allows phone searches _anywhere_ without warrant. I don’t know the rules in the EU or India currently but worked for a company 20 years ago that would not let us travel across any border with IP on a laptop because the assumption is that border agents could demand access both electronically and physically.
theandrewbailey 2y ago
> Causing inconvenience to ordinary Americans is the only way that will get through the thick brains of US Congress No, you need to cause inconvenience specifically to the ruling class, not ordinary people. Otherwise, Congress will just hand-wave away concerns of their constituents if it doesn't affect themselves personally.
Gud 2y ago
No thanks. Treat people how you want to be treated.

mc32 2y ago

They’re not going to. They like/depend on travel dollars too much. We do too but don’t care because it’ll only be few people we don’t care about who stay away. In any case tourism is bad for the environment. Stay local, vacation locally be socially responsible.

1over137 2y ago
>They’re not going to. They like/depend on travel dollars too much. Travel by Canadians (to USA) is down to covid-era lows.
jajko 2y ago
You overestimate the importance of US travelers and their money, that's just 4% of world population. We get plenty of internal cross border tourism and Asia is ramping up every year. But it ain't the best idea anyway, those americans that do travel abroad are mostly the saner ones and not avid trump voters. No point trying to target some rednecks that are trivial to manipulate via emotions whose farthest life trip was maybe to Tijuana.

gruez 2y ago

Your proposed response to civil liberties violations by the US is for EU countries to do the same? What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members?

exe34 2y ago
it's almost as if American citizens were responsible for who they elected.
- mc32 2y ago
  True but only because the last guy as well as the gal they offered as alternatives were so out of touch. You can tell because now Newsom is singing a different tune. He even denies ever using the word “latinx” and Bernie now claims secure borders are a must… Don’t put people is a position where they will make a choice you (the other guys and gals) will regret. Don’t “dare” them.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Bernie was never big on immigration [1]. He's just big on being a decent person. So don't do things like store people on concrete floors under 24h lights. It doesn't mean that he wants unfettered immigration. > (2015) [2] So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. “Open borders?” he interjected. “No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.” The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. “I think from a moral responsibility, we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty,” he conceded, “but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer.” [1]: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/bernie-sanders-immigration-record-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/b... [2]:
  - exe34 2y ago
    "look at what you made me do" - the narcissist prayer.
- harry_ord 2y ago
  Yes but not all of them, no need to drag every person into this.
  - 2y ago
imcritic 2y ago
His proposal was towards only U.S. nationals, to make them feel what they deserve.
- gruez 2y ago
  My previous comment proposed something similar for Salvadoran travelers. To top it off, El Salvador's president has 90% approval rating, compared to trumps ~45%, so they arguably deserve it even more.
  - chirau 2y ago
    What are you talking about? El Salvador is not doing all this scrutiny on incoming travelers.
mschuster91 2y ago
> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? For that case, try international sanctions - of which, yes, increasing visa requirements or banning entry bar special cases (say a Salvadorian having family in the EU) certainly is an option that should be discussed. The EU has strength through the size of its population and economy, and it's time we finally start playing our cards instead of just bending over.
- ghaff 2y ago
  As someone who travels from the US to Europe a lot, my reaction would be sadly shrug my shoulders and not travel to the EU any longer if the requirements were as onerous as, say, China or Russia. (Letters from an organization, etc.) Yes, the UK put ETA in place but that's trivial and mostly symbolic. Took me about 2 minutes to complete which was mostly about grabbing my passport to get the number.
tzs 2y ago
> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? That comparison doesn't really make sense. What mschuster91 proposed is that in response to the US mistreating EU visitors the EU should mistreat US visitors. It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. In your comparison it would be others responding to El Salvador mistreating its own citizens by also mistreating El Salvador's citizens. It is missing the crucial symmetry of a tit for tat.
- the_other 2y ago
  Country B starts doing shady stuff. Country A wants to differentiate itself from B, to retain its A-ness. If A imposes policies that match B's, A becomes more like B. B has exerted soft power over A, and is now in a stronger position to take control of A than it was before.
- latexr 2y ago
  > It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. And then the cycle of hate and harm becomes infinite. Or, in other words: > An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind.¹ Random US citizens are not at fault for random US border agents harming random EU citizens. By all means, have the EU refuse entry to US citizens, but treating them like the US does—imprisoning them for weeks—is unacceptable even in retaliation. ¹ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Individuals aren't, but US citizens, collectively, are at fault for the behavior of the US government.
raducu 2y ago
>. What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? Genuine curiosity, are you a Trump fan?

WhyNotHugo 2y ago

If someone behaves inadequately, you don’t teach them to behave better by imitating them. Causing inconvenience to average Americans won’t have any impact in the actions of their ruling class. In fact, they would likely spin that into propaganda against foreign countries.

mschuster91 2y ago
> If someone behaves inadequately, you don’t teach them to behave better by imitating them. The status quo aka doing nothing hasn't worked either so far - to the contrary, with each administration, the bullshit increases. So, it's time to escalate - if the US doesn't learn the easy way, it takes more pressure.

redserk 2y ago

I don’t think that would do much. The states that went for Harris have a fairly higher degree of passport ownership than states that went to Trump. As someone who grew up in an area leaning hard conservative, the trope of “American who doesn’t travel outside of their state” exists for a reason and describes a lot of people. Extend that to international travel. https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/SAVEact-tables.pdf https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/...

kasey_junk 2y ago

Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK all allow similar searches at the border. China allows phone searches _anywhere_ without warrant. I don’t know the rules in the EU or India currently but worked for a company 20 years ago that would not let us travel across any border with IP on a laptop because the assumption is that border agents could demand access both electronically and physically.

theandrewbailey 2y ago

> Causing inconvenience to ordinary Americans is the only way that will get through the thick brains of US Congress No, you need to cause inconvenience specifically to the ruling class, not ordinary people. Otherwise, Congress will just hand-wave away concerns of their constituents if it doesn't affect themselves personally.

Gud 2y ago

No thanks. Treat people how you want to be treated.