3 ms·

> They talk shit about EU innovation and talk up their own dominance, but the tides are turning and the EU is motivated. I'm waiting for the day when a country

by roenxi 2y ago

> They talk shit about EU innovation and talk up their own dominance, but the tides are turning and the EU is motivated. I'm waiting for the day when a country stands up and says their strategy is to be unmotivated and commit to outdated approaches. Most of them seem to have huge crowds of motivated and capable people who are then swatted down by the local court system because success makes the powers that be uncomfortable. I'd feel more optimistic if you had a specific mistake that Europe was going to stop making. Maybe adjustments to tax laws. Motivation doesn't cut it against people like the Americans or the Chinese, there needs to be actual actions taken beyond makerspaces. Germany seems to have purposefully triggered a domestic energy crisis, that balances out a lot of makerspaces.

microtonal 2y ago
I'd feel more optimistic if you had a specific mistake that Europe was going to stop making. Maybe adjustments to tax laws. Motivation doesn't cut it against people like the Americans or the Chinese, there needs to be actual actions taken beyond makerspaces. This whole Europe bashing is becoming a tiring trope. Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML, ASM, ARM, NXP, STM, etc.). What we don't have are hyper-growth companies that mostly profit from vacuuming up your data and selling you ads. Good riddance. Yes, Europe would be nothing without the US. But the same is true the other way around as well, a few decades of globalism has distributed the production chains across countries. At any rate, back to the GP's comment. I do see a lot of optimism and the EU is going to invest a lot in defense, chips, and AI. There will be plenty of money floating around. Germany seems to have purposefully triggered a domestic energy crisis Well, not purposefully. But certainly ill-considered. At any rate, the EU is on the renewable energy track, we'll get there, and it will give us energy independence. Which is better than going a few decades back in time and 'drill drill drill baby'.
- roenxi 2y ago
  I just want to point out that this is very much what I expect from Europeans. Motivated, optimistic but explicitly rejecting large profitable companies and cheap energy. The immediate plan is to invest in the military which, notably, generally has negative returns on investment. > Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML... visualcapitalist has a wonderful chart I thought of when I saw that: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/semiconductor-production-by-country-or-region-1990-2032f/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/semiconductor-production-by...
  - arsenico 2y ago
    The chart is interesting, but misses on an important thing: semiconductor production on it's own is complicated, but producing equipment for semiconductor production is the whole new level, that's why ASML.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML, ASM, ARM, NXP, STM, etc.) Having "a lot of companies" is a meaningless metric on its own when all those European companies combined make less money than Apple on a bad quarter. That's like me saying I do "a lot of deadlifts", without mentioning all those deadlifts are done with an empty barbell. Context makes the difference. What matters is not how many companies, but how much money are you bringing into the economy and how many well paid jobs you're creating. EU has a lot of traditional and mediocrely profitable companies that are still going through layoffs: Bosch, Siemens, VW, Audi, etc due to being mostly stuck in stagnating industries that are facing increasing competition from Asia. >the EU is going to invest a lot in defense, chips, and AI I've heard this political song and dance before yet it hasn't ever materialized in more and better paid tech jobs for Europeans.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    Having "a lot of companies" is a meaningless metric on its own when all those European companies combined make less money than Apple on a bad quarter. That's like me saying I do "a lot of deadlifts", without mentioning all those deadlifts are done with an empty barbell. Context makes the difference. Apple won't produce a lot of cutting-edge iPhone chips without ASML lithography. iPhones (at least some generations) also use NXP chips. ASML incidentally had a revenue of 28.26 billion in 2024 (slightly more than e.g. AMD). I've heard this political song and dance before yet it hasn't ever materialized in more and better paid tech jobs for Europeans. Which kinda shows that you (maybe?) don't understand Europe. Sure, more salary is always great. But many Europeans (also those working in the highly technical industry) prefer vacation days, good health insurance, unemployment benefits, being able to cycle/walk to work over concrete jungles, etc. I know a lot of tech people who had job offers in the US, but would never want to move there. Some do work remotely for US companies though.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >Apple won't produce a lot of cutting-edge iPhone chips without ASML lithography. Who cares who makes what widget in the supply chain of whatever product? That doesn't change the fact that Apple makes higher margins on the ASML-TSMC made chips than ASML themselves. If you insist on being pedantic on the supply chain, then ASML couldn't build those machines without the EUV light sources from Cymer in California. iPhone are also made by Foxconn in China, so what? Every country has some companies highly specialized in something specific, but what matters at the end of the day is who takes home the biggest slices of the pie from the end product, not who makes how many widgets inside the product. >Phones (at least some generations) also use NXP chips. NXP is highly toxic company to work for that just had another wave of layoffs, and also has lower profit margins that Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Nvidia, etc. basically all the US semi companies. So I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here but your chosen examples aren't selling the image of EU tech supremacy. Just look at market cap of EU vs US tech sectors.
master-lincoln 2y ago
What makes you think there is a domestic energy crisis? Spot prices are comparable with neighboring countries: https://www.energyprices.eu/ https://www.energyprices.eu/
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  "Apart from a complacent reliance on Russian gas throughout its period of fast growth, Germany’s energy policy faces a detrimental resistance to nuclear energy, a sluggish transition to green energy, and an incredibly slow bureaucracy, all contributing to the nation’s energy crisis." [1] [1] https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/ https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leadi...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - master-lincoln 2y ago
    Ah ok, an opinion piece from last year makes you think that.
  - martin_a 2y ago
    I will call bullshit over and over again. Especially companies rested on a relaxed foundation of artifically low energy prices due to lobbyism and dependence on cheap Russian gas. Both is gone and companies face "true" prices and have to deal with them. Nevertheless, energy generation from renewables is rising and rising, more and more renewable capacity is added to the grid each week and laws have been loosened to enable a faster transition.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      I won't get into what might be considered "artificially low prices" and "true prices", but isn't what you describe an energy crisis, then? I picked an illustrative article that explains things. Germany has been hit by an energy crisis as a matter of concensus and fact, not opinion. You can easily research the topic if you are actually curious and interested.
wolfgangbabad 2y ago
EU has much better banking than the US. With VAT ID is paradoxically less fragmented as well. SEPA transactions is something the US can only dream about and will never materialize because Jim Texan's Right Bank ltd. will be against a common payment framework ;D because freedom or some other generic-murikan brainfart. America ban when cannot compete. Culture of guns and oppression.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  If only they had some money to put in those banks
  - jajko 2y ago
    We have plenty and have higher quality of life, better healthcare, better social services, vastly better public education, better infrastructure, much lower criminality, much better personal happiness and personal fulfilment, much less stress and live much longer... Yeah enjoy your money, you will need it when getting older to finance basic services and needs.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      We are having less and less money (growth has stalled), which means we will struggle to maintain everything you've mentioned, we already are.
    - torginus 2y ago
      Why are people so catty to each other? I feel like I'm on another site.
      - jajko 2y ago
        Yes thats true, I also feel a bit regret for getting provoked (but never starting out of blue, just responding in similar manners). Ifs fucking disappointing, Europe and US are by far the best allies and friends (Australia and New Zealand too) on the most important matters - our core values, our respect for democracy etc. France helped you with independence, you helped us defeat fucking nazis ffs. I hate to see this breakup, because it feels permanent for foreseeable future. And there aren't even good enough reasons. I hate that 1 unstable person can literally drag a billion down down the mud.
ben_w 2y ago
> I'm waiting for the day when a country stands up and says their strategy is to be unmotivated and commit to outdated approaches. There's a few examples that come to mind, some better than others — "commit to outdated approaches" is what "conservative" used to mean, Chesterton's Fence etc. Bureaucracy can be about powerful people capturing institutions to prevent competition. Totally a thing. But it's not the only cause of rules and regulations, some of which are very much written in the blood of those who died by the absence of those rules. I think taxation changes are unlikely to unlock anything EU-wide (consider what it's like today in China or what it was like in the USA in the decades after WW2); instead, I'd consider the impact of having 24 official languages and needing substantially different legal teams between each nation. Imagine how much harder it would be to do business in the USA if everything in Silicon Valley and Hollywood was in Spanish, everything in Louisiana was French, everything in New York was in Dutch, etc. — innovation is still possible, and common regulations in the form of the EU still help, but these barriers still remain. Likewise, despite the Euro, there's eight currencies in the EU. Imagine if Texas still used Redbacks; Vermont used Vermont coppers; Pennsylvania, pounds; etc.

by roenxi 2y ago

microtonal 2y ago

I'd feel more optimistic if you had a specific mistake that Europe was going to stop making. Maybe adjustments to tax laws. Motivation doesn't cut it against people like the Americans or the Chinese, there needs to be actual actions taken beyond makerspaces. This whole Europe bashing is becoming a tiring trope. Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML, ASM, ARM, NXP, STM, etc.). What we don't have are hyper-growth companies that mostly profit from vacuuming up your data and selling you ads. Good riddance. Yes, Europe would be nothing without the US. But the same is true the other way around as well, a few decades of globalism has distributed the production chains across countries. At any rate, back to the GP's comment. I do see a lot of optimism and the EU is going to invest a lot in defense, chips, and AI. There will be plenty of money floating around. Germany seems to have purposefully triggered a domestic energy crisis Well, not purposefully. But certainly ill-considered. At any rate, the EU is on the renewable energy track, we'll get there, and it will give us energy independence. Which is better than going a few decades back in time and 'drill drill drill baby'.

roenxi 2y ago
I just want to point out that this is very much what I expect from Europeans. Motivated, optimistic but explicitly rejecting large profitable companies and cheap energy. The immediate plan is to invest in the military which, notably, generally has negative returns on investment. > Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML... visualcapitalist has a wonderful chart I thought of when I saw that: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/semiconductor-production-by-country-or-region-1990-2032f/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/semiconductor-production-by...
- arsenico 2y ago
  The chart is interesting, but misses on an important thing: semiconductor production on it's own is complicated, but producing equipment for semiconductor production is the whole new level, that's why ASML.
FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>Europe has a lot of successful companies, including in computing (ASML, ASM, ARM, NXP, STM, etc.) Having "a lot of companies" is a meaningless metric on its own when all those European companies combined make less money than Apple on a bad quarter. That's like me saying I do "a lot of deadlifts", without mentioning all those deadlifts are done with an empty barbell. Context makes the difference. What matters is not how many companies, but how much money are you bringing into the economy and how many well paid jobs you're creating. EU has a lot of traditional and mediocrely profitable companies that are still going through layoffs: Bosch, Siemens, VW, Audi, etc due to being mostly stuck in stagnating industries that are facing increasing competition from Asia. >the EU is going to invest a lot in defense, chips, and AI I've heard this political song and dance before yet it hasn't ever materialized in more and better paid tech jobs for Europeans.
- microtonal 2y ago
  Having "a lot of companies" is a meaningless metric on its own when all those European companies combined make less money than Apple on a bad quarter. That's like me saying I do "a lot of deadlifts", without mentioning all those deadlifts are done with an empty barbell. Context makes the difference. Apple won't produce a lot of cutting-edge iPhone chips without ASML lithography. iPhones (at least some generations) also use NXP chips. ASML incidentally had a revenue of 28.26 billion in 2024 (slightly more than e.g. AMD). I've heard this political song and dance before yet it hasn't ever materialized in more and better paid tech jobs for Europeans. Which kinda shows that you (maybe?) don't understand Europe. Sure, more salary is always great. But many Europeans (also those working in the highly technical industry) prefer vacation days, good health insurance, unemployment benefits, being able to cycle/walk to work over concrete jungles, etc. I know a lot of tech people who had job offers in the US, but would never want to move there. Some do work remotely for US companies though.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >Apple won't produce a lot of cutting-edge iPhone chips without ASML lithography. Who cares who makes what widget in the supply chain of whatever product? That doesn't change the fact that Apple makes higher margins on the ASML-TSMC made chips than ASML themselves. If you insist on being pedantic on the supply chain, then ASML couldn't build those machines without the EUV light sources from Cymer in California. iPhone are also made by Foxconn in China, so what? Every country has some companies highly specialized in something specific, but what matters at the end of the day is who takes home the biggest slices of the pie from the end product, not who makes how many widgets inside the product. >Phones (at least some generations) also use NXP chips. NXP is highly toxic company to work for that just had another wave of layoffs, and also has lower profit margins that Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Nvidia, etc. basically all the US semi companies. So I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here but your chosen examples aren't selling the image of EU tech supremacy. Just look at market cap of EU vs US tech sectors.

master-lincoln 2y ago

What makes you think there is a domestic energy crisis? Spot prices are comparable with neighboring countries: https://www.energyprices.eu/ https://www.energyprices.eu/

mytailorisrich 2y ago
"Apart from a complacent reliance on Russian gas throughout its period of fast growth, Germany’s energy policy faces a detrimental resistance to nuclear energy, a sluggish transition to green energy, and an incredibly slow bureaucracy, all contributing to the nation’s energy crisis." [1] [1] https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leading-economy-is-falling-behind/ https://hir.harvard.edu/germanys-energy-crisis-europes-leadi...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- master-lincoln 2y ago
  Ah ok, an opinion piece from last year makes you think that.
- martin_a 2y ago
  I will call bullshit over and over again. Especially companies rested on a relaxed foundation of artifically low energy prices due to lobbyism and dependence on cheap Russian gas. Both is gone and companies face "true" prices and have to deal with them. Nevertheless, energy generation from renewables is rising and rising, more and more renewable capacity is added to the grid each week and laws have been loosened to enable a faster transition.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    I won't get into what might be considered "artificially low prices" and "true prices", but isn't what you describe an energy crisis, then? I picked an illustrative article that explains things. Germany has been hit by an energy crisis as a matter of concensus and fact, not opinion. You can easily research the topic if you are actually curious and interested.

wolfgangbabad 2y ago

EU has much better banking than the US. With VAT ID is paradoxically less fragmented as well. SEPA transactions is something the US can only dream about and will never materialize because Jim Texan's Right Bank ltd. will be against a common payment framework ;D because freedom or some other generic-murikan brainfart. America ban when cannot compete. Culture of guns and oppression.

CalRobert 2y ago
If only they had some money to put in those banks
- jajko 2y ago
  We have plenty and have higher quality of life, better healthcare, better social services, vastly better public education, better infrastructure, much lower criminality, much better personal happiness and personal fulfilment, much less stress and live much longer... Yeah enjoy your money, you will need it when getting older to finance basic services and needs.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    We are having less and less money (growth has stalled), which means we will struggle to maintain everything you've mentioned, we already are.
  - torginus 2y ago
    Why are people so catty to each other? I feel like I'm on another site.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Yes thats true, I also feel a bit regret for getting provoked (but never starting out of blue, just responding in similar manners). Ifs fucking disappointing, Europe and US are by far the best allies and friends (Australia and New Zealand too) on the most important matters - our core values, our respect for democracy etc. France helped you with independence, you helped us defeat fucking nazis ffs. I hate to see this breakup, because it feels permanent for foreseeable future. And there aren't even good enough reasons. I hate that 1 unstable person can literally drag a billion down down the mud.

ben_w 2y ago

> I'm waiting for the day when a country stands up and says their strategy is to be unmotivated and commit to outdated approaches. There's a few examples that come to mind, some better than others — "commit to outdated approaches" is what "conservative" used to mean, Chesterton's Fence etc. Bureaucracy can be about powerful people capturing institutions to prevent competition. Totally a thing. But it's not the only cause of rules and regulations, some of which are very much written in the blood of those who died by the absence of those rules. I think taxation changes are unlikely to unlock anything EU-wide (consider what it's like today in China or what it was like in the USA in the decades after WW2); instead, I'd consider the impact of having 24 official languages and needing substantially different legal teams between each nation. Imagine how much harder it would be to do business in the USA if everything in Silicon Valley and Hollywood was in Spanish, everything in Louisiana was French, everything in New York was in Dutch, etc. — innovation is still possible, and common regulations in the form of the EU still help, but these barriers still remain. Likewise, despite the Euro, there's eight currencies in the EU. Imagine if Texas still used Redbacks; Vermont used Vermont coppers; Pennsylvania, pounds; etc.