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Is this where the whole Europe bashing on social media comes from? US needing to believe that a better society, rule of law, social services isn’t real in Europ

• SauciestGNU 2y ago
  Not only that, but it explains the disdain for Europe in the current American government. European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Fascists hate a counterexample.
  • ranger_danger 2y ago
    Seems like "they hate us for our freedom!" has done a complete 180 as of late.
    • SauciestGNU 2y ago
      Yes and it's verifiable via the leaked signal messages from VP Vance and SecDef Hegseth.
    • watwut 2y ago
      Like US is supporting fascist moments in Europe and sight heiling.
  • tpm 2y ago
    Corporations and oligarchs effectively own European governments too. Just possibly a bit less than in the US.
    • pclmulqdq 2y ago
      They own European governments far more. They just have several hundred years of extra practice at being subtle.
      • tpm 2y ago
        Going by "The purpose of a system is what it does", I think European (specifically EU-member) states do a lot more for their citizens than the US does, in welfare, healthcare, environment, infrastructure and so on, so either the oligarchs are very subtle indeed (looking at our Slovakian oligarchs... I don't think so) or they just don't own the governments far more (yet). They are certainly trying though. I think this is because effectively influencing European politics as a whole (as opposed to individual countries) is much more complicated than the US because of the diversity of languages, cultures and media, but then the EU-level politics will also influence state politics. But also every country has a commissioner in the commission and a vote in the EC, so there are several levels of feedback. Of course many internal and external actors are trying to own or destroy the EU, I just hope they won't be succesful.
        • pclmulqdq 2y ago
          The European upper class doesn't generally pay taxes, and they are more of internationalists than you are thinking. They move around enough and have their home base somewhere like Monaco so they don't participate at all in the welfare systems. European welfare systems redistribute huge amounts of money from the middle class to the poor, not from the rich. In other words, the European welfare systems are actually a great tool of theirs to keep the competition down: if you're taxing the upper-middle-class workers at a ~50% rate, they need to out-earn you 2:1 to build wealth at the same rate.
          • tpm 2y ago
            I'm not disagreeing with you, just that even with all that "the common people" still get more from the state than in the US, that's at least my feeling.
        • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
          European governments do these extra things for their citizens because they have to. Or at least historically had to. Because there was an active socialist & communist movement -- with massive trade union support -- on the continent forcing them to. That is basically non-existent in the US, and very weak and closer to non-existent in Canada. (We only have universal healthcare here because of the actions of the social democratic CCF/NDP in the 60s in Saskatchewan, winning against a doctor's strike and showing the centre-left in the rest of the country that it was possible. At that moment in time. I don't think such a thing could ever be won now. Not against an established insurance industry.)
    • soco 2y ago
      And this is a very important point: there's no "perfect" situation (mandatory Churchill quote: "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried"). But there are so many nuances of gray that it's most important to differentiate. Yes, there's stupid EU bureaucracy. But citizens can influence it, look at the legendary straight banana regulation: it was repealed. And so on, slow, imperfect, annoying and at times even dangerous, but it kinda works. However, it will need much more to be able to withstand these times...
  • lurk2 2y ago
    > European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. They are also substantially poorer than Americans, and those numbers get worse when you account for America’s average being skewed lower by having a higher proportion of recent immigrants with lower earning potentials.
    • askonomm 2y ago
      And yet, by all accounts we have a higher life quality than Americans. Only Americans care about money, because in USA you don't get anything without paying for it all yourself. Here we have minimum mandatory vacations for 4 weeks per year, and many countries have a lot more than that, most countries have a year or more of maternity leave, paid of course, we have plenty of public holidays, paid of course, and we don't need to do work while in a hospital or when giving birth, as that would be illegal for the employer to ask of you. There's also no at-will firing just because your boss doesn't like your face, there needs to be an actual reason proving that a person cannot fulfill responsibilities, and there also needs to be a chance given to improve on the mistakes before firing a person. Our food is not riddled in toxic waste because of those horrible regulations that Americans don't like, our air is breathable because of those same horrible regulations, companies are not allowed to just steal and sell all of our data or keep it indefinitely, because of those horrible regulations, which makes American tyrants mad because they can't make their billion dollar startups here so easily since they're used to breaking the law, abusing people, or paying off governments to get what they want, which is a lot harder to do here. Much sad, many tear, for the poor American startup founder. Europeans by and large don't share the same values as Americans. Being filthy rich isn't our goal, our goal is good health, spending time with our loved ones, having plenty of time to rest and dedicate on our hobbies, and being treated fairly and with respect. Americans on the other hand care about money at all cost, doesn't matter if it's at the expense of working class people, and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy. I also don't know what freedom of speech you are talking about since I read the news and USA seems to have everything, BUT freedom of speech. Your education is down the toilet, crime is rampant, police murders minorities on a regular basis, school shootings everywhere, a government as corrupt as can possibly be, people fired en masse everywhere for not replying to an e-mail ...
  • chasd00 2y ago
    Man the European/anti-US folks are really triggered this morning. Yeah criminal justice moves slow in the US and isn’t perfect at all. It’s a huge thing from local police and courts to the FBI and… even more courts. As for lawyers there’s a reason for the joke “what do you call a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.”
    • kubb 2y ago
      Calling people triggered only works as an argument in the US. It’s meaningless over here.
      • bavell 2y ago
        Sounds like an observation, not an argument.
      • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
        Let me in :(
    • MSFT_Edging 2y ago
      > isn’t perfect at all Isn't this purposefully minimizing what essentially amounts to a poor-people-torture machine. The purpose of the system is what the system does. In the US we have deeply ingrained perverse financial incentives in criminal justice with wildly variable sentencing that depends on the mood of the judge that day. Stray any amount from the fine line of legal, and if you're unlucky you could be plunged into a system where you'll be put into massive debt, while also losing your job, home, important documents, etc. We claim to want to reform criminals, yet we kick out their feet at every turn and expect them to say "thank you". And then the people who face the smallest amount of risk to being victimized by this system like to say "Yeah, it's not perfect".
  • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    The "official" line about Europe is "they get to live this way because we protect them" or some such. Similar things are uttered by the same people about Canada, but with more denigrating comments. In absolute terms the US is much wealthier than either. But like always with statistics it's important to look at the distribution, not the average. Staying on topic: the Canadian legal system is probably about as bureaucratically dysfunctional as the US, just without the private super-prisons and the monetary shakedown. Which is to say it's dysfunctional and broke.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  • dionidium 2y ago
    You'll save yourself a lot of time and confusion by accepting that neither side is jealous of the other. I don't want the lifestyle Europe is selling.
    • ty6853 2y ago
      The hilarious thing is to get a visa in Europe one of the most reliable ways is to start a business under DAFT or be an investor. They want the evil hypercapitalist entrepreneur, they don't actually want the kind of people that their system often claims to champion the most.
  • akimbostrawman 2y ago
    Calling European freedom true freedom compared to American one is laughable and I say that as a European. Almost no country in Europe comes close to the freedom granted by the bill of rights.
  • rvba 2y ago
    This is the exact reason why Putin invaded Ukraine. Ukraine started to get closer to European Union: more transparent, more democratic, less corrupt and richer. When Russians saw that it was possible in Ukraine, they would get rid of Putin. So he invaded.
• atoav 2y ago
  I mean if you think the US is the greatest country on earth, but for some reason needs to made great "again" and that has to involve scapegoating then having an ally where they solved most of the problems you are having with simple commons sense measures isn't all that attractive. It amazing how US billionaires managed to have a majority vote against their interest and endure this shitshow. Time for the US to realize that their governments are meant to represent them and not the other way around.
  • foxglacier 2y ago
    If you think people are voting against their own interests, what's probably happening is you don't know what their interests are and don't even realize that you don't know. Other people's interests are obviously not the same as yours but often they're not even what they publicly claim so you won't find out without actual empathy and effort. But it's easier to just be a bigot than understand other cultures.
    • atoav 2y ago
      I grew up in a Austrian province governed by a neo-nazi connected right wing party, when I say voting against their interest who I mean are those who aren't ardent Nazis. Sure, there might be actual Nazis who would like to lose everything if it just allowed them to force their beliefs on others as was historically the case. But most people who vote for right wingers do so because they believe they will have tangible benefits. But if your premise is false, your conclusion is also false.
      • foxglacier 2y ago
        I don't understand what you mean. People in your province voted against their own interests because they believed (incorrectly?) that it would benefit them? How do you know what their interests were or whether it did benefit them in ways that were important to them or not?
        • OKRainbowKid 2y ago
• lawn 2y ago
  There's a similar phenomena with how Russians view Ukraine. "Who allowed them to live so well?".
  • watwut 2y ago
    You should have seen what Ryssians say about Europe
    • soco 2y ago
      Before or after they emigrate to Europe? Or are they coming to Switzerland out of spite?
      • watwut 2y ago
        Majority is not emigrating and believe what state media says.
  • raincole 2y ago
    Ukraine is and was literally the poorest european country. Even before this war.
    • Viliam1234 2y ago
      So why do the Russian invaders keep steeling the toilets and washing machines? When you measure wealth, it makes a huge difference how exactly you calculate it. Having a few astronomically rich oligarchs in your country increases the arithmetic mean, but does nothing about the median. This is how Russia can have better numbers in national statistics, and yet the average Russian soldier can feel the other way round in Ukraine.
      • hollerith 2y ago
        Your making stuff up. [del: Most Russian soldiers are paid over $100,000 a year to volunteer to fight in Ukraine. :del] In contrast, most of the Ukrainian soldiers are conscripts. Here's a Youtube channel by a Brit who moved to Russia in 2002 or 2003: https://www.youtube.com/@SamsRussianAdventures/videos https://www.youtube.com/@SamsRussianAdventures/videos At the current time, the top video (i.e., the latest video) in that list is titled, "I'm Much Happier Here in Russia - Here's How Much it Costs". Sadly, I haven't been able to find out (after watching about 5 of his videos) how much he earns and how he gets his money. Russia's Gini coefficient is 35.1 whereas the US is at 41.3. Zero means perfect equality whereas 100 is the most unequal society possible.
• yieldcrv 2y ago
  no, not really, this is a separate issue. yes, American exceptionalism relies on a comparing itself to the worst countries in the world and ignoring that developed nations exist and work out decently. but there really is a skepticism about some Europe nations, can they - and the bloc - sustain its 21st century advances and social safety nets while adequately paying for its own defense? inquiring minds would like to know, and now we don't have to debate it anymore. Is the budget really balanced if all commitments were funded as agreed? Can European nations really tolerate each other with the rearmaments? stay tuned
  • jajko 2y ago
    These are separate issues. Healthcare aint cheap anywhere for the state, but its perfectly fundable for any but the most poor and broken countries in the world, to a very decent level. But US is broken in another way - everything is for-profit, no real oversight, and unrestricted capitalism full throttle. Then you get what you got. There are 2 absolutely basic pillars of modern free society worth living in - 1) how it takes care of its weak and injured ones (healthcare and social services); 2) and how it builds a better future via good available public education. US fails in most if not all of those. There are aspects it excels in but they are not primary markers of happiness, life fulfillment, low stress and such.
    • yieldcrv 2y ago
      correct, but Americans as a whole aren't envious of what other countries are doing. There is very little consensus to suggest envy - as the supposition above had suggested was the root of European bashing. There is more consensus on accessing these things - healthcare and higher education - via wealth, or programs within the state of residence. Some individual states/cities do offer free higher education, and free healthcare. Segments of the population also get healthcare subsidized from the national federal government, the same experience as if it was universal. Private options are available for all, just like many European nations have or even mandate, to complement a public system. The consensus is very similar to what JD Vance wrote in the group chat: that it remains to be proven that Europe can solve its own problems while gloating about what they've built up domestically by appropriating their budgets towards advances we aren't willing to do. and its "pathetic" that we subsidize their defense, while we do experience squalor and infrastructure problems. The American perspective is very similar to what JD Vance - the vice president - wrote, even if its oversimplified or even inaccurate. Vance didn't just appear from the void, he is a 40 year millennial, who briefly lived in Bernal Heights, San Francisco for more than a year while working at a Menlo Park-based biotechnology company in Silicon Valley, was in the army, from the middle of the country, who openly criticized Trump like anyone else in the SF Bay Area would before finding it more favorable to seek power. His perspectives are not fringe in any way. He is just saying them outloud and with journalists around now.
• nukem222 2y ago
  Let's just Europe does not send its best to represent itself on social media (a curse we all share, frankly). You talk to enough confidently-ignorant assholes and any desire to be polite vanishes. The number of europeans who think preservatives are illegal in the EU is pretty befuddling.
  • PaulHoule 2y ago
    When I spent a year in Germany circa 1999 I thought the food labels sucked compared to food labels in the US. There were cigarette vending machines on the streets all over Dresden and they even had little candy vending machines below them. When it comes to occupational health and safety you can't say European standards are better. The established process for making plutonium fuel is to grind uranium oxide together with plutonium oxide in a high energy ball mill, then pack the powder into pellets, sinter them, and then have somebody stick the pellets into a fuel rod with gloves. The process creates Pu nanoparticles, once of which could give you lung cancer if it gets deep into your lungs. In the factory Karen Silkwood worked at they couldn't control the dust to the extent that people could work without wearing respirators. The factory successfully made fuel for the Fast Flux Test Facility but being forced to wear respirators was a "normalization of deviance" that regulators would not grant to subsequent MOX (mixed-oxide) facilities in the US. In France on the other hand, wearing respirators was seen as just fine. It was a difficult problem to determine the occupational hazard at that kind of factory, confused by the "Healthy Worker" effect such that people who work in almost any job are healthier than the average population. Circa 2015 the evidence was clear that MOX workers really do get lung cancer, I think it's no coincidence that the US shuttered a planned MOX factory around this time.
    • KennyBlanken 2y ago
      > I thought the food labels sucked compared to food labels in the US. > When it comes to occupational health and safety you can't say European standards are better. First off, US food labels aren't nearly as strict as most people think. There are a number of exceptions and cases where things simply don't have to be listed, and in others the label can outright lie. Tic tacs somewhat famously are listed as having "zero calories." They do not. But because tictac says the serving size is one and it has below a certain number of calories, they're allowed to round down to zero. But there are also allowances for simply not listing ingredients. Another example is that US food manufacturers were required to label if a product contained allergens, but the whole thing has been watered down because they lobbied for an additional rule, which was that they could just slap a warning that a product might contain allergens and not have to test for allergens at all. Similar to CA' widely mocked Prop 65 labels. The reason those labels are worthless is because the industry lobbied to be allowed to just slap the label on everything and not have to test their products for toxic materials. Speaking as someone who lives in the US: US food labels contain more because there's far more allowed to go into the product, because corps have said "let the market decide, if they don't want RED40 in their food they won't buy it." The industry also incessantly fights the FDA on what's considered toxic, and even if it is, trolls over "well there's only a very tiny bit of it, so you have to prove it'll ACTUALLY have an effect on people" which of course is very difficult if the risk is statistically small and there's a million other things that can be the same or greater risk. In the EU, toxic crap for the most part isn't allowed in the food period, so there's less need to be so strict about what does or doesn't go into a food label, because EU consumers don't have to both educate themselves in what's toxic and check a label to see if it's got something that is toxic in it.
• dionidium 2y ago
  Speaking only for myself, I think Europeans, in general (and most people in this thread) have no real sense for how violent the US really is, how much more crime we have than Europe, how many of our violent offenders serve no serious time, or how many times the modal US prisoner has been previously arrested or convicted of a crime. The typical US prisoner 1) did their crime; 2) did many other crimes besides the one they're in prison for; 3) is very likely to commit additional crimes upon their release. Small, homogenous European countries have absolutely no idea how to solve our crime problem and their criticisms reflect an irritating combination of ignorance and arrogance.
  • kubb 2y ago
    Your solution to crime isn’t working very well, but that’s OK, nobody’s telling you what to do. We can just observe the society you have and wonder how you can simultaneously not take responsibility for your outcomes, and bash others who make different choices and have better outcomes. From your post it sounds like you feel that you do know better, and the only issue you’re having isn’t your policy, but your “lack of homogeneity”, which makes it impossible to improve anything.
    • tkjef 2y ago
      very reasonable observation. :) i can tell you being physically strong comes with it violence and is at the fabric of being an American. so i’d say the issue is complicated and nuanced as is most. breaking the law (through violence) is also American. we stand up for what we believe in. even if it means breaking the law and going against our government. this is America. the fact that you have better outcomes for crime is great. how’s your investment system? how’s your sports teams? how’s your military? how’s your stock market? how’s your currency?
      • kubb 2y ago
        I can respect that breaking the law is American, and by all means, go for it. In general life in Europe is pretty good and could be better, thanks for asking. We can invest, we watch different sports than you do and we don't have a comparable military. The stock market is fine, the currency is fine. I guess the social media campaign is addressed at those of you, who would like less crime, and who would like rule of law, and less aggression, and a safer lifesytle. To lie to them and tell them that having these things leads to downfall or something.