4 ms·

TFA doesn't really explain how is this better/cheaper than existing ADSB based technologies, or where one is more appropriate than the other (ie which use cases

TFA doesn't really explain how is this better/cheaper than existing ADSB based technologies, or where one is more appropriate than the other (ie which use cases it's targeting)?

eastbound 2y ago
Authentication? ADSB isn’t authenticated. Anyone can emit, anyone can spoof, and I probably shouldn’t say that over the wire. The FAA said in 2012, when the conf at Defcon was made, that it had its own secret mitigation.
- 4ndrewl 2y ago
  Agree on ADSB, but couldnt you spoof this using paint or 1:1 scale cardboard aircraft?
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  Getting the Doppler shift right against multiple receivers would be physically impossible (If you’re not travelling at the right speed of course)
orbital-decay 2y ago
Mentioning the military might give you a hint...
- 4ndrewl 2y ago
  I mean, commercial services do filter out mil adsb, but they are out there and available. So the use case is tracking movements of military aircraft?
  - traverseda 2y ago
    Not all military planes are going to actually have ADSB, obviously. Also even the unfiltered stream requires an ADSB receiver somewhere.
    - 4ndrewl 2y ago
      Yes, that's true, but I'm still struggling to understand the market fit for "where are the military aircraft". You would presume the people who need to know this information (ie those people for whom this is actionable data) already know this to a sufficient degree?
      - jgilias 2y ago
        They do. Until people who have this information decide to stop sharing it with you.
  - kavalg 2y ago
    In my experience, military aircrafts are visible in flightradar most of the time. However, if they are flying in a group (e.g. choppers), usually only one of them is visible.
  - jjwiseman 2y ago
    It's not true that commercial services filter out military aircraft with ADS-B. In fact, FlightRadar24 even lets you filter to only show military aircraft. I see over a dozen flying near San Diego right now.
xiii1408 2y ago
It's not at all comparable. ADS-B is opt-in: you place an ADS-B out transmitter in your plane and turn it on to transmit your position [1]. You're perfectly free to turn your ADS-B off if you like. It's not even required for most of the US, so some planes may not have it installed (ADS-B out is only required within 30 nautical miles of a Class B airport [big airport], inside Class C airspace [medium-size airport], or in Class A airspace [18,000 ft above sea level]). Military aircraft don't use ADS-B out a lot of the time. Spy planes are obviously not going to transmit their locations. A civilian plane with an electrical failure might stop transmitting ADS-B out. Being able to identify planes via satellite is a whole separate capability. [1] In all the planes I've flown, ADS-B is configured to transmit whenever the master electrical switch is turned on, but it can be configured to be turned on and off at will. See this video on a mid-air collision involving an eccentric character who liked to fly with ADS-B out turned off: https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=rs5gNMurZ9ssUloS https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=rs5gNMurZ9ssUloS. If I recall correctly, he had his ADS-B wired to his nav lights so he could turn it on and off at will.
- 4ndrewl 2y ago
  That video is great, thanks. Though the ML solution doesn't seem to claim to be able to identify individual aircraft, just do daily counts of aircraft at specific airfields. Which I guess works for military aircraft, but I guess if you're a nation state actor you've already got this sort of technology/intelligence?
  - XorNot 2y ago
    Nation states are always interested in paying less to get this sort of intelligence though.
- closewith 2y ago
  ADS-B is mandatory in many jurisdictions and for all commercial flights basically everywhere. Obviously like any transponder, you can pull the breaker, but turning it off is likely to beer the end of you're commercial piloting career.
- jaybna 2y ago
rob74 2y ago
I was wondering about that too. They can only detect aircraft with wingspans over 25 m, so most fighter jets (and also GA aircraft) are too small. Large commercial aircraft can be much better located (and identified!) via ADS-B. So that doesn't leave a lot of aircraft (bombers, tankers, AWACS and other larger military aircraft) for which this is useful.

TFA doesn't really explain how is this better/cheaper than existing ADSB based technologies, or where one is more appropriate than the other (ie which use cases it's targeting)?

eastbound 2y ago

Authentication? ADSB isn’t authenticated. Anyone can emit, anyone can spoof, and I probably shouldn’t say that over the wire. The FAA said in 2012, when the conf at Defcon was made, that it had its own secret mitigation.

4ndrewl 2y ago
Agree on ADSB, but couldnt you spoof this using paint or 1:1 scale cardboard aircraft?
Scoundreller 2y ago
Getting the Doppler shift right against multiple receivers would be physically impossible (If you’re not travelling at the right speed of course)

orbital-decay 2y ago

Mentioning the military might give you a hint...

4ndrewl 2y ago
I mean, commercial services do filter out mil adsb, but they are out there and available. So the use case is tracking movements of military aircraft?
- traverseda 2y ago
  Not all military planes are going to actually have ADSB, obviously. Also even the unfiltered stream requires an ADSB receiver somewhere.
  - 4ndrewl 2y ago
    Yes, that's true, but I'm still struggling to understand the market fit for "where are the military aircraft". You would presume the people who need to know this information (ie those people for whom this is actionable data) already know this to a sufficient degree?
    - jgilias 2y ago
      They do. Until people who have this information decide to stop sharing it with you.
- kavalg 2y ago
  In my experience, military aircrafts are visible in flightradar most of the time. However, if they are flying in a group (e.g. choppers), usually only one of them is visible.
- jjwiseman 2y ago
  It's not true that commercial services filter out military aircraft with ADS-B. In fact, FlightRadar24 even lets you filter to only show military aircraft. I see over a dozen flying near San Diego right now.

xiii1408 2y ago

It's not at all comparable. ADS-B is opt-in: you place an ADS-B out transmitter in your plane and turn it on to transmit your position [1]. You're perfectly free to turn your ADS-B off if you like. It's not even required for most of the US, so some planes may not have it installed (ADS-B out is only required within 30 nautical miles of a Class B airport [big airport], inside Class C airspace [medium-size airport], or in Class A airspace [18,000 ft above sea level]). Military aircraft don't use ADS-B out a lot of the time. Spy planes are obviously not going to transmit their locations. A civilian plane with an electrical failure might stop transmitting ADS-B out. Being able to identify planes via satellite is a whole separate capability. [1] In all the planes I've flown, ADS-B is configured to transmit whenever the master electrical switch is turned on, but it can be configured to be turned on and off at will. See this video on a mid-air collision involving an eccentric character who liked to fly with ADS-B out turned off: https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=rs5gNMurZ9ssUloS https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=rs5gNMurZ9ssUloS. If I recall correctly, he had his ADS-B wired to his nav lights so he could turn it on and off at will.

4ndrewl 2y ago
That video is great, thanks. Though the ML solution doesn't seem to claim to be able to identify individual aircraft, just do daily counts of aircraft at specific airfields. Which I guess works for military aircraft, but I guess if you're a nation state actor you've already got this sort of technology/intelligence?
- XorNot 2y ago
  Nation states are always interested in paying less to get this sort of intelligence though.
closewith 2y ago
ADS-B is mandatory in many jurisdictions and for all commercial flights basically everywhere. Obviously like any transponder, you can pull the breaker, but turning it off is likely to beer the end of you're commercial piloting career.
jaybna 2y ago

rob74 2y ago

I was wondering about that too. They can only detect aircraft with wingspans over 25 m, so most fighter jets (and also GA aircraft) are too small. Large commercial aircraft can be much better located (and identified!) via ADS-B. So that doesn't leave a lot of aircraft (bombers, tankers, AWACS and other larger military aircraft) for which this is useful.