3 ms·

>There's literally not a place in the world (except for Canada and Australia) that shares as many common values with the US as Europe. I just don't think that'

>There's literally not a place in the world (except for Canada and Australia) that shares as many common values with the US as Europe. I just don't think that's true. Europeans seem much more collectivist, whereas the US is more individualist. That's why Europeans express disdain for US policies around healthcare, guns, etc. Europeans express a tremendous amount of disdain for the US online, calling Americans fat, dumb, neo-imperialist, etc. That's been going on for ages before Trump. It's done a lot to undermine the transatlantic relationship, in my view. People-to-people connections matter for diplomacy. How would you feel if an American insulted your leader with a derogatory nickname such as "Agent Orange"? Europeans are so used to expressing disdain for the US that they hardly even notice themselves doing it. >when we need you the most for the first time since the 1990 you decided to fuck us. From my perspective, we deterred Russia for 80 years following WW2, and provided almost 50% of the support for Ukraine to date. That's more than enough to account for European support in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US provided 80% of the muscle for Iraq and Afghanistan. For a fair relationship, Europe should expect to provide 80% of the muscle to deter Russia. A reset to fairness should not feel like betrayal. Europe gets most of the benefit from NATO, therefore Europe should do most of the spending in NATO. Fix this pie chart: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Nato-Defense-Spending_Site.jpg https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/...

Timon3 2y ago
> How would you feel if an American insulted your leader with a derogatory nickname such as "Agent Orange"? Europeans are so used to expressing disdain for the US that they hardly even notice themselves doing it. This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. Maybe your views are colored by your subjective experiences, without being truly representative of the objective facts? Because I have no idea how else you could have the idea that what you described doesn't happen the other way around.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  >This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. So how does it make you feel? Does it make you want to send troops to America's next Iraq?
  - Timon3 2y ago
    It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. My political opinions are instead based on the political positions, trend, instability & recently insanity of America. If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. Just look at something like Reddit - I'm guessing at least half the comments are AI generated these days, if not more.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
      >It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. OK, well, can you understand if some of your countrymen didn't wish to send troops to America's next Iraq, due to the xenophobia they experienced? That's just human nature regardless of what country you're from. That's what I've been trying to explain. You know that in the US, conservatives are over-represented in the military. If the US does fight Russia, they will be the ones dying for you. Driven by a sense of American patriotism that Europe loves to belittle. It just doesn't make any sense. >If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. I don't believe it's manipulation. Europeans have been anti-American for as long as I can remember. I don't think it is just an internet thing. But yes, it is ironic that lots of Europeans (in this thread even) post, and vote on comments, in more or less the way they would post if they were being paid by Russia. In any case, if we're going to disregard the internet, why not disregard my comments too? Maybe I'm an AI bot. Or maybe you'd find me to be nice and wonderful if we were interacting in person :-)
Aloisius 2y ago
> Europeans seem much more collectivist, whereas the US is more individualist. That's why Europeans express disdain for US policies around healthcare, guns, etc. The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. One should disdain the US healthcare system not because it isn't "collectivist" (there's nothing particularly individualistic about insurance), but because it's horrifically inefficient. The US government spends more money on healthcare per capita than anywhere in Europe (or Canada or any developed country), yet only manages to cover half the population leaving the other half to spend even more money for private insurance.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  >The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. Our discussion is on the topic of whether the US and Europe have common values. You can call this stuff "collectivism" if you want. But ironically I think it still indicates some deep US/Europe value differences. No one in the US believes people should be obligated to serve in the military. It's considered an honor which receives societal support and recognition. This feels more like voluntary altruism. The US has a similar approach with charitable giving -- last I checked its charitable donations are among the highest in the world. In Europe, by contrast, things are organized along obligations. Europeans don't give to charity as much; rather, they're forced to pay taxes so the government can hand out money. And they take that same mentality to the transatlantic alliance, implying that the US should be obligated to defend them. It's quite jarring to me when here in the US we celebrate the voluntary sacrifices of our service members, whereas Europeans take our service members as a given, and complain when we discuss withdrawal. You should celebrate more when another country chooses to defend you, not less.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > No one in the US believes people should be obligated to serve in the military USA still has legal support for conscription, so that is wrong. Plenty of people feel exactly that.

Timon3 2y ago

> How would you feel if an American insulted your leader with a derogatory nickname such as "Agent Orange"? Europeans are so used to expressing disdain for the US that they hardly even notice themselves doing it. This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. Maybe your views are colored by your subjective experiences, without being truly representative of the objective facts? Because I have no idea how else you could have the idea that what you described doesn't happen the other way around.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
>This happens literally every day. There's a bunch of xenophobic stereotypes about my country I've only ever heard from Americans, and on average I've received far more vitriol from them than from my fellow Europeans. So how does it make you feel? Does it make you want to send troops to America's next Iraq?
- Timon3 2y ago
  It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. My political opinions are instead based on the political positions, trend, instability & recently insanity of America. If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. Just look at something like Reddit - I'm guessing at least half the comments are AI generated these days, if not more.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    >It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. OK, well, can you understand if some of your countrymen didn't wish to send troops to America's next Iraq, due to the xenophobia they experienced? That's just human nature regardless of what country you're from. That's what I've been trying to explain. You know that in the US, conservatives are over-represented in the military. If the US does fight Russia, they will be the ones dying for you. Driven by a sense of American patriotism that Europe loves to belittle. It just doesn't make any sense. >If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. I don't believe it's manipulation. Europeans have been anti-American for as long as I can remember. I don't think it is just an internet thing. But yes, it is ironic that lots of Europeans (in this thread even) post, and vote on comments, in more or less the way they would post if they were being paid by Russia. In any case, if we're going to disregard the internet, why not disregard my comments too? Maybe I'm an AI bot. Or maybe you'd find me to be nice and wonderful if we were interacting in person :-)

Aloisius 2y ago

> Europeans seem much more collectivist, whereas the US is more individualist. That's why Europeans express disdain for US policies around healthcare, guns, etc. The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. One should disdain the US healthcare system not because it isn't "collectivist" (there's nothing particularly individualistic about insurance), but because it's horrifically inefficient. The US government spends more money on healthcare per capita than anywhere in Europe (or Canada or any developed country), yet only manages to cover half the population leaving the other half to spend even more money for private insurance.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
>The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. Our discussion is on the topic of whether the US and Europe have common values. You can call this stuff "collectivism" if you want. But ironically I think it still indicates some deep US/Europe value differences. No one in the US believes people should be obligated to serve in the military. It's considered an honor which receives societal support and recognition. This feels more like voluntary altruism. The US has a similar approach with charitable giving -- last I checked its charitable donations are among the highest in the world. In Europe, by contrast, things are organized along obligations. Europeans don't give to charity as much; rather, they're forced to pay taxes so the government can hand out money. And they take that same mentality to the transatlantic alliance, implying that the US should be obligated to defend them. It's quite jarring to me when here in the US we celebrate the voluntary sacrifices of our service members, whereas Europeans take our service members as a given, and complain when we discuss withdrawal. You should celebrate more when another country chooses to defend you, not less.
- Jensson 2y ago
  > No one in the US believes people should be obligated to serve in the military USA still has legal support for conscription, so that is wrong. Plenty of people feel exactly that.