4 ms·

> I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me They don't despise you. They dislike your government. > What I don't like is the notion that the US

by messe 2y ago

> I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me They don't despise you. They dislike your government. > What I don't like is the notion that the US has a special obligation to protect Ukraine. Sure, it doesn't. But you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? > You're saying that you don't like how antitrust is practiced in the US? Why is that any of your business? Because how antitrust is practiced in the US has global effects. Why wouldn't it be our business? > If you're going to complain about Elon Musk commenting on German elections, why is it your place to complain about how antitrust law works in the US? Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. > Yet somehow when Americans do the same, and comment on European policies regarding e.g. immigration, Europeans flip out. Generally, we tend to be better informed about American issues than vice versa, due to the global reach of US media. I'm not saying Europeans are perfectly informed, I've seen some dumb as fuck takes, but on average it certainly skews one way.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
>They don't despise you. They dislike your government. Then why are my comments in this thread being downvoted? I'm trying to share my perspective, and I get sarcastic replies like "Cry me a river." All of my most acrimonious arguments on HN have been with Europeans talking about transatlantic relations. There just seems to be something uniquely dysfunctional about the US/Europe relationship. From my perspective, I'm sorry to say that internet Europeans come across as incredibly obnoxious and entitled. Put it another way, I see way more "Americans are fat and stupid" comments from Europeans than other US allies. That's not about our government. That's about us as Americans. I find that anti-American stereotypes are frequently false when you fact check. For example, the US actually seems to have pretty good education outcomes. We're not stupid: https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732244687929360434#m https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/17322446879293604... This fact-checking tells me that anti-Americanism (again: regarding citizens, not the government) may be driven by resentment rather than data. There seems to be some sort of tall poppy syndrome coming out of Europe which I don't want to be a part of. I interpret it as a sort of toxic collectivism. America is an individualist country which believes in celebration of success and free association. Europe wants to resent American success, while also obliging the US to help it when it needs help. I just don't want to be allied with you guys anymore, sorry. I'm happy that you're now starting to figure out things on your own, and I wish you the best. >you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? For one, I don't buy this appeasement talking point. I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. This seems to be another European collectivism thing again, where if you question this you get excluded from the collective. For another thing, from a realist perspective, I actually don't see why Russian expansionism is so vital to US interests. From a realist perspective, we could just be neutral and trade with whoever wins. Peace with major powers like Russia and China is very much in the US interest. Even before Trump, Europeans would always say that the US is a selfish imperialist country. Maybe the point of Trump is to show just a bit about how the US would actually behave, if the US was the sort of country that Europe has always said it was. >Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. Is there a principle that you're not supposed to interfere in another country's elections, or not? Sure, you're just one commenter, but a lot of random European commenters add up. I'm happy for you to constructively critique why you think a different antitrust policy would be better, or even say Europe should make antitrust an item in trade negotations. But it comes across as obnoxious when you act like US antitrust policies are oppressing you and we're obligated to change them for you, and this negates 80 years of NATO protection. The US is a sovereign nation that's allowed to have its own antitrust policies, its own foreign policy, its own approach to alliances. That understanding needs to be foundational for an improved US/Europe relationship. So far I just don't think Europeans get it.
- jensgk 2y ago
  > I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. Hard evidence is too late. Putin (and associates) speeches and writings indicate more than enough. Why do you think that former Soviet countries boardering Russia are the most scared?
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  From your link > Do European countries appear to perform worse than White Americans in standardized tests because of low-performing immigrants? You are literally citing material that compares as race segregated US to other countries as wholes. I have a lot of very smart American friends, from all across the political spectre. I have mostly worked for us companies. And luckily you are not representative of the average American.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    >You are literally citing material that compares as race segregated US to other countries as wholes. Yes, the claim is that apparently low US scores have more to do with US racial composition than a problem with the US educational system. That's the point? I hedged with "seems to have pretty good education outcomes" because I'm not sure about the racial composition of Europe for 3rd+ generation immigrations. My expectation is that mass migration to Europe is mostly just in the past couple of generations (accounted for in that thread), but I haven't looked into it. >And luckily you are not representative of the average American. I didn't vote for Trump. I actually think he's a terrible president. But many Americans did. If Europe wants to get along with the US, it would be useful to understand how Trump supporters think. Since I do sympathize with them in some respects, I've been trying to explain that perspective, as I understand it, to users in this thread. If you want to understand the "average American", you can't just write off a huge fraction of the American population and refer to Trump as "Agent Orange", as was done elsewhere in this thread. You claim to have American friends from all across the political spectrum. What have you learned from your Trump-supporting friends which helped you understand their perspective? It looks to me like you had me pegged as a Trump supporter previously (ascribing views to me I did not hold), and immediately became sarcastic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43459849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43459849

by messe 2y ago

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago

>They don't despise you. They dislike your government. Then why are my comments in this thread being downvoted? I'm trying to share my perspective, and I get sarcastic replies like "Cry me a river." All of my most acrimonious arguments on HN have been with Europeans talking about transatlantic relations. There just seems to be something uniquely dysfunctional about the US/Europe relationship. From my perspective, I'm sorry to say that internet Europeans come across as incredibly obnoxious and entitled. Put it another way, I see way more "Americans are fat and stupid" comments from Europeans than other US allies. That's not about our government. That's about us as Americans. I find that anti-American stereotypes are frequently false when you fact check. For example, the US actually seems to have pretty good education outcomes. We're not stupid: https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732244687929360434#m https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/17322446879293604... This fact-checking tells me that anti-Americanism (again: regarding citizens, not the government) may be driven by resentment rather than data. There seems to be some sort of tall poppy syndrome coming out of Europe which I don't want to be a part of. I interpret it as a sort of toxic collectivism. America is an individualist country which believes in celebration of success and free association. Europe wants to resent American success, while also obliging the US to help it when it needs help. I just don't want to be allied with you guys anymore, sorry. I'm happy that you're now starting to figure out things on your own, and I wish you the best. >you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? For one, I don't buy this appeasement talking point. I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. This seems to be another European collectivism thing again, where if you question this you get excluded from the collective. For another thing, from a realist perspective, I actually don't see why Russian expansionism is so vital to US interests. From a realist perspective, we could just be neutral and trade with whoever wins. Peace with major powers like Russia and China is very much in the US interest. Even before Trump, Europeans would always say that the US is a selfish imperialist country. Maybe the point of Trump is to show just a bit about how the US would actually behave, if the US was the sort of country that Europe has always said it was. >Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. Is there a principle that you're not supposed to interfere in another country's elections, or not? Sure, you're just one commenter, but a lot of random European commenters add up. I'm happy for you to constructively critique why you think a different antitrust policy would be better, or even say Europe should make antitrust an item in trade negotations. But it comes across as obnoxious when you act like US antitrust policies are oppressing you and we're obligated to change them for you, and this negates 80 years of NATO protection. The US is a sovereign nation that's allowed to have its own antitrust policies, its own foreign policy, its own approach to alliances. That understanding needs to be foundational for an improved US/Europe relationship. So far I just don't think Europeans get it.

jensgk 2y ago
> I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. Hard evidence is too late. Putin (and associates) speeches and writings indicate more than enough. Why do you think that former Soviet countries boardering Russia are the most scared?
tossandthrow 2y ago
From your link > Do European countries appear to perform worse than White Americans in standardized tests because of low-performing immigrants? You are literally citing material that compares as race segregated US to other countries as wholes. I have a lot of very smart American friends, from all across the political spectre. I have mostly worked for us companies. And luckily you are not representative of the average American.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  >You are literally citing material that compares as race segregated US to other countries as wholes. Yes, the claim is that apparently low US scores have more to do with US racial composition than a problem with the US educational system. That's the point? I hedged with "seems to have pretty good education outcomes" because I'm not sure about the racial composition of Europe for 3rd+ generation immigrations. My expectation is that mass migration to Europe is mostly just in the past couple of generations (accounted for in that thread), but I haven't looked into it. >And luckily you are not representative of the average American. I didn't vote for Trump. I actually think he's a terrible president. But many Americans did. If Europe wants to get along with the US, it would be useful to understand how Trump supporters think. Since I do sympathize with them in some respects, I've been trying to explain that perspective, as I understand it, to users in this thread. If you want to understand the "average American", you can't just write off a huge fraction of the American population and refer to Trump as "Agent Orange", as was done elsewhere in this thread. You claim to have American friends from all across the political spectrum. What have you learned from your Trump-supporting friends which helped you understand their perspective? It looks to me like you had me pegged as a Trump supporter previously (ascribing views to me I did not hold), and immediately became sarcastic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43459849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43459849