5 ms·

> The point of having a strong military is to deter your enemies, not fight them. That breaks the premise for this thread which was people lost in war. > It's

> The point of having a strong military is to deter your enemies, not fight them. That breaks the premise for this thread which was people lost in war. > It's really striking the amount of anti-Americanism that comes out of Europe relative to other US allies. You broaden up the premise from lost casualties in war to the entire relationsship - I think that is multiple PhDs to figure out whether this is anti american or reasonable push back. I can further open this up an include obvious anti trust malpractice, cultural imperialism, etc., etc. that the US in constantly pushing on the EU (and the rest of the world). But please enlighten me on how the entire world in against the US, and how badly you are being treated - the country with the absolute biggest economic power and military power. Cry me a river.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
>That breaks the premise for this thread which was people lost in war. lupusreal talked about the "risk of Americans once again dying in yet another European war" (emphasis mine). By making Europe part of its security umbrella, and deterring the USSR/Russia, the US shouldered that risk. It's simple. I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me. Every time Europeans downvote my comments in this thread, it makes me want to shoulder risk for them less and less. And I'm a registered Democrat. >You broaden up the premise from lost casualties in war to the entire relationsship - I think that is multiple PhDs to figure out whether this is anti american or reasonable push back. I'm trying to tell you, as a European, why Americans like me aren't enthusiastic about the alliance. What you do with that information is your business. I think some pushback on the issue of Greenland is perfectly justified. That represents actual aggressive behavior on the part of the US. And I think it's fair to complain about the US voting with Russia at the United Nations. We could at least abstain from voting, like China. What I don't like is the notion that the US has a special obligation to protect Ukraine. * Everywhere on the internet, you'll see the "fact" that the US promised to protect Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. That "fact" is false. All we promised was to seek UN Security Council action. Read the memorandum for yourself if you don't believe me: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... * There are ongoing armed conflicts all over the world. The US can't police everywhere. And it's psychologically unsustainable to do volunteer police work when people despise you for it. Given our limited resources, we need to prioritize. We might as well de-prioritize the interests of relatively wealthy countries, such as Europe, since those countries should be better able to provide for themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... >obvious anti trust malpractice You're saying that you don't like how antitrust is practiced in the US? Why is that any of your business? The US is a sovereign country. If you're going to complain about Elon Musk commenting on German elections, why is it your place to complain about how antitrust law works in the US? For many years, Europeans have had absolutely no inhibitions in expressing their contempt for US policies in guns, healthcare, etc. Yet somehow when Americans do the same, and comment on European policies regarding e.g. immigration, Europeans flip out. >cultural imperialism So Europeans, of their own free will, like American music and movies. This is supposed to represent the US oppressing Europe somehow? I think these two complaints of yours actually underscore my point about European anti-Americanism. I can't imagine a Japanese person complaining that they are oppressed due to the way antitrust is practiced in the US, or that they are oppressed because so many Japanese like to watch American movies. Out of all our "allies", it's only Europeans who are in the habit of complaining about stuff like this. >the country with the absolute biggest economic power and military power. I think life is generally pretty good for Americans, and we don't have a lot to complain about. But we do have limited resources, and we can't help everyone. And it's very annoying to read all of the anti-Americanism online, even for situations where we tried to do our best, and even when we're arguably one of the most benevolent superpowers in world history. At a certain point I just don't want to be involved anymore.
- messe 2y ago
  > I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me They don't despise you. They dislike your government. > What I don't like is the notion that the US has a special obligation to protect Ukraine. Sure, it doesn't. But you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? > You're saying that you don't like how antitrust is practiced in the US? Why is that any of your business? Because how antitrust is practiced in the US has global effects. Why wouldn't it be our business? > If you're going to complain about Elon Musk commenting on German elections, why is it your place to complain about how antitrust law works in the US? Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. > Yet somehow when Americans do the same, and comment on European policies regarding e.g. immigration, Europeans flip out. Generally, we tend to be better informed about American issues than vice versa, due to the global reach of US media. I'm not saying Europeans are perfectly informed, I've seen some dumb as fuck takes, but on average it certainly skews one way.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    >They don't despise you. They dislike your government. Then why are my comments in this thread being downvoted? I'm trying to share my perspective, and I get sarcastic replies like "Cry me a river." All of my most acrimonious arguments on HN have been with Europeans talking about transatlantic relations. There just seems to be something uniquely dysfunctional about the US/Europe relationship. From my perspective, I'm sorry to say that internet Europeans come across as incredibly obnoxious and entitled. Put it another way, I see way more "Americans are fat and stupid" comments from Europeans than other US allies. That's not about our government. That's about us as Americans. I find that anti-American stereotypes are frequently false when you fact check. For example, the US actually seems to have pretty good education outcomes. We're not stupid: https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732244687929360434#m https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/17322446879293604... This fact-checking tells me that anti-Americanism (again: regarding citizens, not the government) may be driven by resentment rather than data. There seems to be some sort of tall poppy syndrome coming out of Europe which I don't want to be a part of. I interpret it as a sort of toxic collectivism. America is an individualist country which believes in celebration of success and free association. Europe wants to resent American success, while also obliging the US to help it when it needs help. I just don't want to be allied with you guys anymore, sorry. I'm happy that you're now starting to figure out things on your own, and I wish you the best. >you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? For one, I don't buy this appeasement talking point. I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. This seems to be another European collectivism thing again, where if you question this you get excluded from the collective. For another thing, from a realist perspective, I actually don't see why Russian expansionism is so vital to US interests. From a realist perspective, we could just be neutral and trade with whoever wins. Peace with major powers like Russia and China is very much in the US interest. Even before Trump, Europeans would always say that the US is a selfish imperialist country. Maybe the point of Trump is to show just a bit about how the US would actually behave, if the US was the sort of country that Europe has always said it was. >Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. Is there a principle that you're not supposed to interfere in another country's elections, or not? Sure, you're just one commenter, but a lot of random European commenters add up. I'm happy for you to constructively critique why you think a different antitrust policy would be better, or even say Europe should make antitrust an item in trade negotations. But it comes across as obnoxious when you act like US antitrust policies are oppressing you and we're obligated to change them for you, and this negates 80 years of NATO protection. The US is a sovereign nation that's allowed to have its own antitrust policies, its own foreign policy, its own approach to alliances. That understanding needs to be foundational for an improved US/Europe relationship. So far I just don't think Europeans get it.

0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago

>That breaks the premise for this thread which was people lost in war. lupusreal talked about the "risk of Americans once again dying in yet another European war" (emphasis mine). By making Europe part of its security umbrella, and deterring the USSR/Russia, the US shouldered that risk. It's simple. I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me. Every time Europeans downvote my comments in this thread, it makes me want to shoulder risk for them less and less. And I'm a registered Democrat. >You broaden up the premise from lost casualties in war to the entire relationsship - I think that is multiple PhDs to figure out whether this is anti american or reasonable push back. I'm trying to tell you, as a European, why Americans like me aren't enthusiastic about the alliance. What you do with that information is your business. I think some pushback on the issue of Greenland is perfectly justified. That represents actual aggressive behavior on the part of the US. And I think it's fair to complain about the US voting with Russia at the United Nations. We could at least abstain from voting, like China. What I don't like is the notion that the US has a special obligation to protect Ukraine. * Everywhere on the internet, you'll see the "fact" that the US promised to protect Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. That "fact" is false. All we promised was to seek UN Security Council action. Read the memorandum for yourself if you don't believe me: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P... * There are ongoing armed conflicts all over the world. The US can't police everywhere. And it's psychologically unsustainable to do volunteer police work when people despise you for it. Given our limited resources, we need to prioritize. We might as well de-prioritize the interests of relatively wealthy countries, such as Europe, since those countries should be better able to provide for themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... >obvious anti trust malpractice You're saying that you don't like how antitrust is practiced in the US? Why is that any of your business? The US is a sovereign country. If you're going to complain about Elon Musk commenting on German elections, why is it your place to complain about how antitrust law works in the US? For many years, Europeans have had absolutely no inhibitions in expressing their contempt for US policies in guns, healthcare, etc. Yet somehow when Americans do the same, and comment on European policies regarding e.g. immigration, Europeans flip out. >cultural imperialism So Europeans, of their own free will, like American music and movies. This is supposed to represent the US oppressing Europe somehow? I think these two complaints of yours actually underscore my point about European anti-Americanism. I can't imagine a Japanese person complaining that they are oppressed due to the way antitrust is practiced in the US, or that they are oppressed because so many Japanese like to watch American movies. Out of all our "allies", it's only Europeans who are in the habit of complaining about stuff like this. >the country with the absolute biggest economic power and military power. I think life is generally pretty good for Americans, and we don't have a lot to complain about. But we do have limited resources, and we can't help everyone. And it's very annoying to read all of the anti-Americanism online, even for situations where we tried to do our best, and even when we're arguably one of the most benevolent superpowers in world history. At a certain point I just don't want to be involved anymore.

messe 2y ago
> I don't want to shoulder risk for people who despise me They don't despise you. They dislike your government. > What I don't like is the notion that the US has a special obligation to protect Ukraine. Sure, it doesn't. But you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? > You're saying that you don't like how antitrust is practiced in the US? Why is that any of your business? Because how antitrust is practiced in the US has global effects. Why wouldn't it be our business? > If you're going to complain about Elon Musk commenting on German elections, why is it your place to complain about how antitrust law works in the US? Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. > Yet somehow when Americans do the same, and comment on European policies regarding e.g. immigration, Europeans flip out. Generally, we tend to be better informed about American issues than vice versa, due to the global reach of US media. I'm not saying Europeans are perfectly informed, I've seen some dumb as fuck takes, but on average it certainly skews one way.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  >They don't despise you. They dislike your government. Then why are my comments in this thread being downvoted? I'm trying to share my perspective, and I get sarcastic replies like "Cry me a river." All of my most acrimonious arguments on HN have been with Europeans talking about transatlantic relations. There just seems to be something uniquely dysfunctional about the US/Europe relationship. From my perspective, I'm sorry to say that internet Europeans come across as incredibly obnoxious and entitled. Put it another way, I see way more "Americans are fat and stupid" comments from Europeans than other US allies. That's not about our government. That's about us as Americans. I find that anti-American stereotypes are frequently false when you fact check. For example, the US actually seems to have pretty good education outcomes. We're not stupid: https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732244687929360434#m https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/17322446879293604... This fact-checking tells me that anti-Americanism (again: regarding citizens, not the government) may be driven by resentment rather than data. There seems to be some sort of tall poppy syndrome coming out of Europe which I don't want to be a part of. I interpret it as a sort of toxic collectivism. America is an individualist country which believes in celebration of success and free association. Europe wants to resent American success, while also obliging the US to help it when it needs help. I just don't want to be allied with you guys anymore, sorry. I'm happy that you're now starting to figure out things on your own, and I wish you the best. >you don't think that appeasing an expansionist Russia might run contrary to America's interests? For one, I don't buy this appeasement talking point. I haven't seen much hard evidence that Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. This seems to be another European collectivism thing again, where if you question this you get excluded from the collective. For another thing, from a realist perspective, I actually don't see why Russian expansionism is so vital to US interests. From a realist perspective, we could just be neutral and trade with whoever wins. Peace with major powers like Russia and China is very much in the US interest. Even before Trump, Europeans would always say that the US is a selfish imperialist country. Maybe the point of Trump is to show just a bit about how the US would actually behave, if the US was the sort of country that Europe has always said it was. >Yeah, the influence of a random commenter on HN is comparable to the owner of one of the worlds largest social networks. Come on. Is there a principle that you're not supposed to interfere in another country's elections, or not? Sure, you're just one commenter, but a lot of random European commenters add up. I'm happy for you to constructively critique why you think a different antitrust policy would be better, or even say Europe should make antitrust an item in trade negotations. But it comes across as obnoxious when you act like US antitrust policies are oppressing you and we're obligated to change them for you, and this negates 80 years of NATO protection. The US is a sovereign nation that's allowed to have its own antitrust policies, its own foreign policy, its own approach to alliances. That understanding needs to be foundational for an improved US/Europe relationship. So far I just don't think Europeans get it.