3 ms·

The grigri in particular is a bit of a mixed blessing. Because it has an auto brake, it's harder -- though not impossible, as you indicate -- to just totally fa

The grigri in particular is a bit of a mixed blessing. Because it has an auto brake, it's harder -- though not impossible, as you indicate -- to just totally fail to brake the climber on top rope. If you let go of an ATC, there is no braking and the rope just runs through, which is obviously very bad. By contrast, if you just let go of an grigri it will lock, arresting the fall. However, when lead belaying, you need to pay out rope, which means disengaging the auto brake. If you do this buy holding the handle and the climber falls at the wrong time, it's easy to react by just holding everything tighter, at which point you're holding the grigri open, at which point the auto brake isn't doing anything. By contrast with an ATC or other tube-type device you never have to touch the belay device and so you always can keep your brake hand in the brake position, so if the climber falls, your reflex action -- assuming you have practiced -- should be to pull harder with your brake hand, thus arresting the fall. Aside from belay devices, some other practices I've seen gyms do to try make indoor climbing safer: - Captive grigris on top rope so that you (1) have to use a grigri and (2) can't screw up putting them on and off. - High friction toprope anchors (e.g., wrapped several times around a pipe) so that even with no belay device at all there is still some friction. - Requiring people to tie in with a trace eight rather than a double bowline on the theory that the trace eight is harder to screw up and easier to check.

kyledrake 2y ago
If you get a chance try out the NEOX. It's basically a GriGri with smoother rope feed, so you almost never have to defeat the cam when lead belaying with a proper dynamic technique. They've been polarizing to some people but it really feels like a "fixed GriGri" to me. You still need to mind the brake side, but at least feeding doesn't have an intrinsic design flaw where you have to temporarily disable the safety device.
placardloop 2y ago
The GriGri does not have an autobrake. Petzl is very intentional in saying it is an “assisted braking device”, not auto braking. If there is any tension at all on the rope (even just lightly being held), then the GriGri will likely brake, but if the rope isn’t being held at all then there is no guarantee it will brake. See this video, around the 10 minute mark where there’s several examples of the GriGri not locking at all: https://youtu.be/We-nxljgnw4?t=605 https://youtu.be/We-nxljgnw4?t=605 This is perhaps an even greater issue than what you pointed out because people misunderstand the GriGri a lot, and assume it will always catch them even if you aren’t holding the rope. It won’t.
- pinkmuffinere 2y ago
  To be fair, I suspect the difference between “auto brake” and “assisted braking device” is mostly legal liability. In practical use I would understand both terms to mean the same thing. I think very few people believe a grigri will _always_ catch them. They just (accurately!) believe that in most circumstances it will. The 5% where it won’t catch you is of course deadly.
  - watwut 2y ago
    It is not. There are situations where it won't break and someone dies. It is not just "legal liability" which is Musk speak for "won't always work but I want you to pay as if it did".
  - dilyevsky 2y ago
    The military version is auto-brake for rappelling and you can go fully hands free per petzl but you have to use specific rope. My guess is since they cant control the rope in civilian version they can’t vouch for it working in 100% of cases
- lazide 2y ago
  It’s one of those distinctions which only actually matters in a small and somewhat rare, but very important, edge case. Usually more determined by rope diameter and conditions than anything else.
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    In contexts where a fuckup is likely to result in death or permanent disability it might be prudent to play the consequences instead of the odds. Marginally related: I was always shocked by the diversity of crispy bullshit other climbers were willing to rap off of. I kept new webbing and rap rings in my daypack at all times just in case.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Sure, it should be noted that applying that rule fully consistently would mean never doing recreational climbing at all eh? After all, it is fundamentally risky. Maybe still SAR, of course. I always carried a belay knife and some extra webbing, and used it more than once. A couple times I didn’t need the knife.
k3lsi3r 2y ago
Important point. It's not actually all that trivial to give a good and safe lead belay with a grigri. I see folks wrap their thumb over the Grigri cam to pay slack all the time. It is extremely dangerous when combined with not paying much attention because a surprise fall will cause the belayer to seize their grip on the device and lock it open. Heart breaking example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y All that said, I still prefer to be belayed with a grigri.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
GloriousKoji 2y ago
> when lead belaying, you need to pay out rope, which means disengaging the auto brake. If you do this buy holding the handle What the hell are they teaching kids these days. I've NEVER needed to hold the handle on a grigri unless I'm trying to lower something. The correct technique is hold the cam down with your thumb leaving three to four fingers in contact with the rope at all time. The left hand is used to pull rope through the girgri to give rope to the climber, the climber already has to pull up a bunch of rope through a maze of carabiners and don't need the extra work of trying to pull it through a grigri. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI

kyledrake 2y ago

If you get a chance try out the NEOX. It's basically a GriGri with smoother rope feed, so you almost never have to defeat the cam when lead belaying with a proper dynamic technique. They've been polarizing to some people but it really feels like a "fixed GriGri" to me. You still need to mind the brake side, but at least feeding doesn't have an intrinsic design flaw where you have to temporarily disable the safety device.

placardloop 2y ago

The GriGri does not have an autobrake. Petzl is very intentional in saying it is an “assisted braking device”, not auto braking. If there is any tension at all on the rope (even just lightly being held), then the GriGri will likely brake, but if the rope isn’t being held at all then there is no guarantee it will brake. See this video, around the 10 minute mark where there’s several examples of the GriGri not locking at all: https://youtu.be/We-nxljgnw4?t=605 https://youtu.be/We-nxljgnw4?t=605 This is perhaps an even greater issue than what you pointed out because people misunderstand the GriGri a lot, and assume it will always catch them even if you aren’t holding the rope. It won’t.

pinkmuffinere 2y ago
To be fair, I suspect the difference between “auto brake” and “assisted braking device” is mostly legal liability. In practical use I would understand both terms to mean the same thing. I think very few people believe a grigri will _always_ catch them. They just (accurately!) believe that in most circumstances it will. The 5% where it won’t catch you is of course deadly.
- watwut 2y ago
  It is not. There are situations where it won't break and someone dies. It is not just "legal liability" which is Musk speak for "won't always work but I want you to pay as if it did".
- dilyevsky 2y ago
  The military version is auto-brake for rappelling and you can go fully hands free per petzl but you have to use specific rope. My guess is since they cant control the rope in civilian version they can’t vouch for it working in 100% of cases
lazide 2y ago
It’s one of those distinctions which only actually matters in a small and somewhat rare, but very important, edge case. Usually more determined by rope diameter and conditions than anything else.
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  In contexts where a fuckup is likely to result in death or permanent disability it might be prudent to play the consequences instead of the odds. Marginally related: I was always shocked by the diversity of crispy bullshit other climbers were willing to rap off of. I kept new webbing and rap rings in my daypack at all times just in case.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Sure, it should be noted that applying that rule fully consistently would mean never doing recreational climbing at all eh? After all, it is fundamentally risky. Maybe still SAR, of course. I always carried a belay knife and some extra webbing, and used it more than once. A couple times I didn’t need the knife.

k3lsi3r 2y ago

Important point. It's not actually all that trivial to give a good and safe lead belay with a grigri. I see folks wrap their thumb over the Grigri cam to pay slack all the time. It is extremely dangerous when combined with not paying much attention because a surprise fall will cause the belayer to seize their grip on the device and lock it open. Heart breaking example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y All that said, I still prefer to be belayed with a grigri.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

GloriousKoji 2y ago

> when lead belaying, you need to pay out rope, which means disengaging the auto brake. If you do this buy holding the handle What the hell are they teaching kids these days. I've NEVER needed to hold the handle on a grigri unless I'm trying to lower something. The correct technique is hold the cam down with your thumb leaving three to four fingers in contact with the rope at all time. The left hand is used to pull rope through the girgri to give rope to the climber, the climber already has to pull up a bunch of rope through a maze of carabiners and don't need the extra work of trying to pull it through a grigri. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-with-the-GRIGRI