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The great Hobby Lobby artifact heist
- chiph 2y agoI'm sort of surprised that they haven't approached Bob Jones University. They have one of the largest collections of religious art in the US. Virtual tour: https://museumandgallery.org/tour/ https://museumandgallery.org/tour/
- ch4s3 2y agoIt's a bit off topic but the drop ceilings and wall to wall carpeting in that gallery are so redolent of churches from the 1990s that I could have almost guessed this was at Bob Jones University from the photos.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- brudgers 2y agoSome past discussions on Hacker News, https://hn.algolia.com/?q=hobby%20lobby https://hn.algolia.com/?q=hobby%20lobby
- unwind 2y agoKind of meta but what is the construction equipment in pic 5?
- atrus 2y agoIt feels like a scraper, used for grading.
- dylan604 2y agoWhat? In what way does it feel like a scraper?
- gnatman 2y agoMight be a telescopic handler, basically a giant forklift
- dylan604 2y agoIt's more of a crossover between crane and forklift. telehandlers are more useful than a forklift, but less useful than a crane while being much more mobile than a crane. all four wheels can turn/steer so it is pretty agile.
- potato3732842 2y ago60s-70s rough terrain crane. Grove RT58, RT60 or something along those lines.
- bloomingeek 2y agoIt looks like a cherry picker type crane. In the trade they are called 'widow makers'.
- smithkl42 2y agoI wish the author was a little less over-wrought in her descriptions of the Green family's religious commitments. I've heard complaints before about the Green's artifact acquisition process, and they've had to return some manuscripts: it's a story worth investigating and telling. But it distracts from the author's main point when she's making snide comments about their faith. Yes, they're Christians who are successful at business and who take their faith seriously - so? If the author is trying to convince people she's an even-handed reporter, she'd do better to drop the sarcastic tone.
- Digory 2y agoIt’s fine to be inexperienced with Christianity, but it skews the reporting. For example “kingdom giver” is not someone who gives kingdoms, it’s someone who gives to Christ’s kingdom. But the widow and her mite is an example of kingdom giving as much as the Greens.
- Fluorescence 2y ago>> someone who gives kingdoms The article doesn't claim that so it seems your Christian sensitivities have skewed your reading comprehension. It's referencing a Forbes article using the term to distinguish between thoughtless arbitrary giving vs. giving with purpose: "Even the most generous Christian philanthropists often don't see the purpose of their giving," says Dr. Mark Rutland, the new ORU president and founder of the Global Servants evangelical ministry. "There are impulse givers, people who give to their alma mater or their church or some particular ministry with which they become familiar—but the Greens are Kingdom givers. ... They consider it an honor; they consider it a mission." https://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryadolan/2023/02/13/this-billionaire-is-a-donor-behind-the-jesus-focused-super-bowl-ads/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryadolan/2023/02/13/this-bil...
- Digory 2y agoThe sentence from the article is: "While the total amount the Greens have made in charitable contributions has been kept private, former Oral Roberts University president Dr. Mark Rutland may have worded it best when he described the family as “kingdom givers”. It doesn't link to the Forbes article's definition. Without more, I'd read that sentence to say "Kingdom givers" is a descriptor of the total amounts given by the Greens -- we don't know the amount, but they give kingdoms. As I explained above, "Kingdom" is unrelated to the size of the gift, as made clear from the quote you cited.
- Beestie 2y agoUnclear as to the intent of the word "Heist" in the title. Seems they are paying top dollar if not more for collections sometimes not even authenticating them. As long as they make everything available to the public and to researchers, I don't see anything wrong with it. Also unclear on why this is a two-part story. Is there some big shoe to drop? Trying to avoid the impression that the author is not terribly fond of the Green family.
- 1986 2y agoThe "heist", which presumably gets covered in part 2, is that a lot of these items were originally looted from Iraq after the US invasion in 2003. US Customs ended up seizing a lot of them, and about 15,000 items ended up having to be returned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal
- piokoch 2y agoWell, visit British Museum, you will learn what is professional looting (a.k.a. robbery), not some amateurish second hand purchases done by those hobbyists.
- yannis 2y agoTo be honest and I am from Cyprus, the BM paid for a lot of archaeological expeditions at a time when Antiquity Laws were laxed and the expeditions could take 2/3 of the finds. The 19th century was another story, Cesnola for example (the, then American Ambassador to Cyprus) literally smuggled almost 30,000 objects, which formed the basis of the Metropolitan Museum.
- damnitbuilds 2y agoThe British Museum saved many artifacts which would have been destroyed by various nutty religious types ( a' la Greens ) over the centuries. In doing so, I doubt that they broke any export regulations. And entrance to the British Museum is free, for everyone.
- IOT_Apprentice 2y agoTaking faith seriously: “he staffed “cerebral palsy patients” to chop, glue, and bag for $.10 per piece. Between the high demand and likely paying workers a subminimum wage, profits soared” Nothing like exploitation to drive home Christianity.
- smithkl42 2y agoI don't know the details, but it sounds like there's a legitimate discussion to be had there. But the author's tone makes it difficult to trust that her reporting is in good faith. If there were extenuating circumstances, I wouldn't trust her to have included them.
- themaninthedark 2y agoI actually called that out in my comment, notice the author says "likely". She looked at what is legal but horrific and then claims that he did it without any proof.
- boomboomsubban 2y agoThe author provided a source showing they had a factory where they paid workers with disabilities ten cents a frame, the "likely" is that they can't prove how many frames the people could make in an hour. They assume less than fourteen.
- lutusp 2y ago> The fifth of six children fathered by Rev. Walter Green, God has always been at the forefront of Hobby Lobby patriarch David Green’s life. Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. Two more examples: > This begs an obvious question. That's not what "begging the question" actually means. > or participating in anything the Reverand [sic] Green deemed “worldly activities”. What -- in 2025, no spell checker? By listing these examples I guess I'm being irreverent ... ant.
- g-b-r 2y ago> > The fifth of six children fathered by Rev. Walter Green, God has always been at the forefront of Hobby Lobby patriarch David Green’s life. > Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. Imagine not being able to parse a sentence. > > This begs an obvious question. > That's not what "begging the question" actually means. If you're referring to the logical fallacy, as a foreign English speaker it's the first time I hear about that "begging the question" sense. You're going to have a hard time with English if you don't know its current universal de-facto sense (which the author employed). > What -- in 2025, no spell checker? The horror
- lutusp 2y ago>> Imagine having a family of ordinary children, plus God. And yes, the remainder of the article confirms the promise of this gaffe. > Imagine not being able to parse a sentence. It was up to the author to parse the sentence in advance of posting it. And competent writers don't invite such obvious double meanings -- they undermine the value of the essay. >> That's not what "begging the question" actually means. > If you're referring to the logical fallacy, as a foreign English speaker it's the first time I hear about that "begging the question" sense. Expressions change over time, but normally by consensus. Without consensus, one is entitled to wonder whether the writer knows what the expression means. >> What -- in 2025, no spell checker? > The horror Some writers don't need a spell checker. Others require it.
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- hk1337 2y agoThe author seems to go down a dark rabbit hole describing how seemingly unrelated events are connected. They also seem to placate to any anti-Christian sentiment a reader may already have.
- zippyman55 2y agoWhen I visit that store, I try to imagine what the store would look like with all the “made in China” products removed. My visual is the store would almost be empty.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoThis is the reality of things, China's manufacturing capacity and international sale is insane. There's a chain of stores in the Netherlands too called Action, full of cheap Chinese produced items. It's not even particularly bad or anything.
- flocciput 2y agoIs it just me or has HN as a whole become... more Christian lately? A lot more defensive comments here than I would've expected, and I've seen in other threads people actually openly recommending religion/Christianity specifically as something that solved their problems. What's the deal here? I would've thought this would be a relatively atheist/agnostic community, if not one that eschews discussion of religion entirely.
- michaelsbradley 2y ago> I would've thought this would be a relatively atheist/agnostic community, if not one that eschews discussion of religion entirely. Briefly, why?
- 34679 2y agoI can't speak for OP, but for me it's because this place is full of engineers who place their faith in evidence-based reasoning.
- RandomBacon 2y agoI have an engineering background, and was even gifted The Knack. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. For example, there is the idea of Theistic Evolution. I definitely like evidence-based reasoning, but it doesn't answer everything.
- bee_rider 2y agoEngineering (as distinct from something like math or science) is more about applying, rather than discovering, knowledge. Some folks just treat the models and equations as mantras handed down by some all-knowing being (the professor). The equation shall be recited in the homework, at length in the project, one final time in the exam, and then we shall release it to the universe and free our minds of it.
- xboxnolifes 2y agoThis kind of implies you believe there are no Christian (or any religion) engineers. Which is very clearly not true.
- neuroelectron 2y agoKind of weird that this has 103 upvotes and all the comments are wondering what the point of this story is.
- g-b-r 2y agoKind of weird that there's all this support for Evangelicals on an Hacker News discussion.
- krapp 2y agoIt's not at all weird. Christianity is the cool new thing in Silicon Valley, apparently[0]. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43426885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43426885
- g-b-r 2y agoRotfl, ok, I understood what's going on xD
- alabastervlog 2y agoThe bulk of this discussion could feature prominently in a museum of Internet trolling. An unsolved problem of Internet discussions is that, for a variety of reasons, those with poor literacy and weak background knowledge are overrepresented in the comments (and responses to them may dominate, as well, since such posts tend to act as flame bait at best, and as very-effective classical trolling at worst) and that's something HN struggles with ordinarily, but this particular thread is really something special.
- finnthehuman 2y ago> The cuneiform texts of an ancient Mesopotamian people should, in theory, hold little interest to an arts and crafts vendor based in the midwestern United States. Why shouldn't it? People with money buy artifacts and art of note. The rest of us buy replicas and less noteworthy stuff. People from the Midwest can take interest in ancient Mesopotamia. When writers casts the reader as dumb so they can twist it with an upcoming reveal, it's a signal I use to stop reading. If the twist was good I wouldn't need to be made to think little of the Hobby Lobby owners.
- brightball 2y agoI’m trying to understand why this is still on the front page? It doesn’t appear on topic for tech and there’s clearly a flame war developing in the comments.
- RandomBacon 2y agoPlease read the HN guidelines.
- daverol 2y agoStory also covered in a BBC podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002883z https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002883z
- shaftway 2y agoEvery time I've shopped at a Hobby Lobby, I've gotten a weird feeling that there's something else shady going on. They don't use barcodes to price any of the goods. Everything has a sticker on it, and the cashier types up everything by hand. Your receipt ends up just being a list of dollar amounts and a total, nothing identifying your purchases in any way. I just assumed that they're doing this so they can falsify audits. Similar to how they purchase land and donate it, claiming a bigger tax write-off, I assume they're doing the same with their merchandise. How could you audit it if there's no real stock tracking system?
- EnergyAmy 2y agoThere's no barcodes because they're batshit insane and believe in the "bar codes are the mark of the beast" thing that was popular back in the 90's. People deflecting in this thread are either ignorant or also batshit crazy and should be ignored.
- shepherdjerred 2y agohttps://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hobby-lobby-mark-of-the-beast/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hobby-lobby-mark-of-the-be...
- EnergyAmy 2y agoThat doesn't disprove it at all. It just states that they owners haven't said that's the reason, and that they've given other reasons. Their actions are entirely consistent with someone having batshit crazy beliefs, but knowing that they can't tell people those beliefs.
- gwbas1c 2y agoWhen I was a kid, a store called Spags was popular in my town. They hand-wrote a price on every item. For some stores it's part of the charm.
- wrp 2y agoMany upvotes here due to the political/religious aspect, but there should be some comment on the archeological issue. From what I've gathered in the past, the main points are: 1. An organization with very deep pockets sets out to collect Near Eastern antiquities. 2. Due to turmoil in the Middle East, many relics of dubious provenance are hitting the market. 3. The org decides to buy as much of this stuff as they can, knowing that some of it will be dubious. 4. The org voluntarily has their purchases inspected, knowing they will not be compensated for things that have to be returned to their rightful places. In outline, this sounds like the buyers doing the right thing in a bad situation.
- boomboomsubban 2y agoHobby Lobby openly admitted to falsifying documents to smuggle in artifacts. I've never seen anything suggesting they take your fourth point seriously, at least not before the courts got involved. And, as mentioned in the article, point five would be that they're effectively using this as a tax avoidance loophole.
- turtlesdown11 2y agoThe claims made above with regard to 3 and 4 are false. https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/hobby-lobby-settles-3-million-civil-suit-falsely-labeling-cuneiform-tablets https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/hobby-lobby-settles-3-mill...
- wrp 2y agoThe article confirms #3 and contradicts #4.
- turtlesdown11 2y agoThe press report from ICE does not confirm that they "knew some would be dubious". The press report makes it clear that all the purchases were not done above board.
- boomboomsubban 2y agoDestroying mummies to see if they reused parchment while making them is nearly as egregious as the nineteenth century practice of grinding up mummies as a panacea. It'd be like smashing Fabergé eggs just in case one had something hidden in it.
- forgetfreeman 2y agoPaging Rev. L. Bob Rife to the flight deck...