5 ms·

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowle

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate. The impossible promise of backdoors that France can enter but no other country, organized criminal syndicate or petty government-employed stalker can find is only one impossible promise among the many we can hear from the world's parliaments. In fact, the impossible promise is something of a stereotypical tactic.

aucisson_masque 2y ago
French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. I'm french, i have not heard any people, work, street, even television or internet speak about that. The sad truth is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications. there are open source software that can't be tampered with, software that doesn't use a single server where backdoor can be put, or they could even simply encrypt their text message. i could do that from my mac terminal and Bruno Retailleau isn't going to put a backdoor in my mac terminal...
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. What about using the probability that a specific race or religion will commit crimes then target those people with aggressive tactics. As for the public they could make those people feel unwelcomed through constant harassment in the hopes they leave the country. Thus reducing the crime rate by any means. ---- I checked the murder rate and it's been on a downward trajectory for the last 30 years https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/fra/france/murder-homicide-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/fra/fra... I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?
  - outside2344 2y ago
    In France, like a lot of other countries, they are blaming everything on the immigrants. Crime? Immigrants are doing it. Retirement age? Immigrants are spending the money. These things are not backed up by data, but just like the US, or Nazi Germany, nobody cares, simply easier to choose an easy "solution" and blame immigrants.
    - ZeroTalent 2y ago
      Immigrants commit a bit less crimes than the locals in France.
      - _ache_ 2y ago
        Yes, but inmate population is mostly immigrant descendants (for various reasons, poverty and been unable to work are the main ones).
        rixed 2y ago
        The morally lazy racist explanation is helped by the famous logical fallacy that if most criminals are of foreign origin, it must be because most foreigners are criminals.
    - aucisson_masque 2y ago
      > In 2019, 82% of the people implicated by the police and the gendarmerie declared themselves French and 18% foreigners, while they represent 93% and 7% of the population in France respectively. https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...
  - _ache_ 2y ago
    > I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed? That is a known fact. Criminality rate drops but french people are feeling more and more insecure. There is a media oligarchy in France (by billionaires) that pushes anything but left ideas (the left want an exit tax and a wealth tax, the last one is the Zucman tax). The idea that immigrants are criminals is easy to spread as the prison population is clearly different than the mean population of France (for various reasons). They are pushing it so hard that the population is feeling insecure even if the criminality rate drops. Source about media oligarchy by billionaires: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%C3%A9dias_fran%C3%A7ais%2C_qui_poss%C3%A8de_quoi_%3F_Carte_de_la_concentration_des_m%C3%A9dias_-_Acrimed_%26_Le_Monde_Diplomatique.png/2268px-M%C3%A9dias_fran%C3%A7ais%2C_qui_poss%C3%A8de_quoi_%3F_Carte_de_la_concentration_des_m%C3%A9dias_-_Acrimed_%26_Le_Monde_Diplomatique.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%...
- achenet 2y ago
  Moi aussi je suis francais. > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. Maybe it's because I spent most of my time in big cities hanging out with relatively well-educated, often left-leaning, relatively young people, but I'm not getting that vibe at all. Yes, you do have pathological cases of badly integrated immigrant communities - for example the quartiers Nord de Marseille, and yes, I've known more working class people who have to endure abuse from anti-social immigrant drug dealers to express some pretty far right views, but I'm not sure that reflects the majority of the French population. I don't watch the news much, but when I do I don't see anything about issues with integration, mostly stuff about Ukraine and Trump.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dadoum 2y ago
      > Your lack of empathy for others is always baffling for me. “I haven’t had problems with occupants, therefore they are not a problem.” They just said that they hadn't observed the same thing in their entourage. > Some had to crawl, bleeding on the floor, reciting to Coran. Are you referring to a recent event in France? Can't find any with the query "réciter coran otage". That quote makes France look like a war zone. > Some pupils grow under oppression, having to donate their lunch meal every day. > Some had to give their mobile phone. Are you making a link with "occupants" from the first sentence? Because bullying and assault didn't wait for immigration to exist, and criminality in general is caused by so much factors that makes the analysis harder than just looking at correlations. > some people are thrown in the Seine. Search for "jeté dans la Seine" (thrown in the Seine): - [20 years ago] Brahim Bouraam: murder of a Moroccan in Paris by a far-right militant [0] - [5 days ago] A jogger thrown into the Seine by a drunken German, another bystander injured [1] I don't think you referred to those actions. > But as long as you give occupants priority and respect in your life, and you respect them Nobody said something remotely related to that in the thread. > don’t say anything about the occupied zone ... I hope that you can still find some enjoyment in the dystopian alternate reality you're experiencing. PS: I lived in a hot district. I haven't been assaulted but I know someone who has been. It hasn't been perpetrated by an immigrant, and nothing happened after. He hasn't been caught, police closed the case, and life went on. It makes me think the problem here is not related to immigrants. But that's anecdata anyway. A study apparently found no correlation between immigration and criminality [2]. [0]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam [1]: https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/4143877-20250317-paris-joggeur-jete-seine-allemand-ivre-autre-passant-blessee https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/414... [2]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study-has-found-any-effect-of-immigration-on-criminality_6023985_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study...
- peterfirefly 2y ago
  > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. If that were true, France would have a vastly different immigration policy. It would even have an explicit, drastic, and targeted emigration policy.
  - tuetuopay 2y ago
    Since when the general population are the decision makers? /s Well, half /s anyways. Working class don't want them because "they're taking our jobs". Middle class don't want them because "blah blah security". Upper class want them because that's cheap labour. And as it happens, the upper class is the class in power. Most french don't care. But this still creates tensions, even between immigrants, say for like housing. As we say in french, it's a "bourbier". In the end, it's the same situation as in any other country where immigration has taken over the frontline of the political debate.
- SJC_Hacker 2y ago
  Open source software can definitely be tampered with if the maintainers aren't vigilant enough. Look at what happened with XZ/LZMA debacle a few months ago. Yeah it didn't make it into most distros but still... And the sad reality, the maintainers for most useful OSS projects are essentially paid employees of a company. Which can be easily enticed/forced by governments. And then there's the hardware manufacturers. Even the most hardened software running atop compromised hardware becomes worthless.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nonrandomstring 2y ago
> to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate That's relevant knowledge. It's not the relevant knowledge. Another piece of relevant knowledge is facts about complex things like political science, cryptography, etc. Since politicians actually need to decide and implement things, as a side gig to being popular, lack of the proper knowledge to do so is a shortcoming. > I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is Not big sample sizes, but I regularly ask and interview people from all sides of life, and to a simple question like "Do you think the police should spy on you if that catches criminals?" the answer is always a resounding "no". Especially young people. They just way "No way. We're not criminals". They "arguments" may be choppy, muddy waters, but I don't think peoples feelings about being spied on is much of a mystery.
- grvbck 2y ago
  Here in Sweden the answer from the general public often is "yes, I am honest and have nothing to hide". Unlike French media, Swedish media does not have a well-developed tradition of confronting those in power and/or demanding accountability. I often get frustrated by how easily interviewees dodge direct questions by answering something completely different, and get a "thank you" from the journalist in return, instead of a follow-up question.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    That sounds like the US in the postwar era, under Eisenhower. It broke down quickly, as the journalists were not slow to catch on when the leaders abused that trust.
  - achenet 2y ago
    It's not just our media, it's our culture. We have a looong and storied tradition of not liking the government, starting with our first revolution in 1789, continuing in 1830 and 1848, and further reinforced by the Nazi occupation during WW2. When I went to England, I heard the joke "where are all the French people? Oh right, probably on strike again". I feel like some people would probably go out and protest if the government went so far as to suggest that maybe regular tooth brushing might be a good idea, just out of principle.
BrenBarn 2y ago
One problem is that public opinion is also often at odds with facts. It's not hard to find a sequence of "Do you want X or Y" type questions that will send many people into a circle of intransitive preferences.
palata 2y ago
I think it is a valid point: politicians try to please their voters, and the voters don't know anything about how encryption works. If you tell your voters: "I will force those tech people to develop encryption that can be accessed by the good guys but not by the bad guys", the average voter will say "yeah, that sounds reasonable". I am frustrated that the politicians don't understand that they are making it worse for everybody, but that's probably a consequence of their voters not understanding it either. That's always the problem with complicated issues (e.g. climate change or covid). Voters typically vote without having a basic understanding of the topic.

aucisson_masque 2y ago

French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. I'm french, i have not heard any people, work, street, even television or internet speak about that. The sad truth is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications. there are open source software that can't be tampered with, software that doesn't use a single server where backdoor can be put, or they could even simply encrypt their text message. i could do that from my mac terminal and Bruno Retailleau isn't going to put a backdoor in my mac terminal...

Braxton1980 2y ago
> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. What about using the probability that a specific race or religion will commit crimes then target those people with aggressive tactics. As for the public they could make those people feel unwelcomed through constant harassment in the hopes they leave the country. Thus reducing the crime rate by any means. ---- I checked the murder rate and it's been on a downward trajectory for the last 30 years https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/fra/france/murder-homicide-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/fra/fra... I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?
- outside2344 2y ago
  In France, like a lot of other countries, they are blaming everything on the immigrants. Crime? Immigrants are doing it. Retirement age? Immigrants are spending the money. These things are not backed up by data, but just like the US, or Nazi Germany, nobody cares, simply easier to choose an easy "solution" and blame immigrants.
  - ZeroTalent 2y ago
    Immigrants commit a bit less crimes than the locals in France.
    - _ache_ 2y ago
      Yes, but inmate population is mostly immigrant descendants (for various reasons, poverty and been unable to work are the main ones).
      - rixed 2y ago
        The morally lazy racist explanation is helped by the famous logical fallacy that if most criminals are of foreign origin, it must be because most foreigners are criminals.
  - aucisson_masque 2y ago
    > In 2019, 82% of the people implicated by the police and the gendarmerie declared themselves French and 18% foreigners, while they represent 93% and 7% of the population in France respectively. https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...
- _ache_ 2y ago
  > I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed? That is a known fact. Criminality rate drops but french people are feeling more and more insecure. There is a media oligarchy in France (by billionaires) that pushes anything but left ideas (the left want an exit tax and a wealth tax, the last one is the Zucman tax). The idea that immigrants are criminals is easy to spread as the prison population is clearly different than the mean population of France (for various reasons). They are pushing it so hard that the population is feeling insecure even if the criminality rate drops. Source about media oligarchy by billionaires: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%C3%A9dias_fran%C3%A7ais%2C_qui_poss%C3%A8de_quoi_%3F_Carte_de_la_concentration_des_m%C3%A9dias_-_Acrimed_%26_Le_Monde_Diplomatique.png/2268px-M%C3%A9dias_fran%C3%A7ais%2C_qui_poss%C3%A8de_quoi_%3F_Carte_de_la_concentration_des_m%C3%A9dias_-_Acrimed_%26_Le_Monde_Diplomatique.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%...
achenet 2y ago
Moi aussi je suis francais. > French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. Maybe it's because I spent most of my time in big cities hanging out with relatively well-educated, often left-leaning, relatively young people, but I'm not getting that vibe at all. Yes, you do have pathological cases of badly integrated immigrant communities - for example the quartiers Nord de Marseille, and yes, I've known more working class people who have to endure abuse from anti-social immigrant drug dealers to express some pretty far right views, but I'm not sure that reflects the majority of the French population. I don't watch the news much, but when I do I don't see anything about issues with integration, mostly stuff about Ukraine and Trump.
- eastbound 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dadoum 2y ago
    > Your lack of empathy for others is always baffling for me. “I haven’t had problems with occupants, therefore they are not a problem.” They just said that they hadn't observed the same thing in their entourage. > Some had to crawl, bleeding on the floor, reciting to Coran. Are you referring to a recent event in France? Can't find any with the query "réciter coran otage". That quote makes France look like a war zone. > Some pupils grow under oppression, having to donate their lunch meal every day. > Some had to give their mobile phone. Are you making a link with "occupants" from the first sentence? Because bullying and assault didn't wait for immigration to exist, and criminality in general is caused by so much factors that makes the analysis harder than just looking at correlations. > some people are thrown in the Seine. Search for "jeté dans la Seine" (thrown in the Seine): - [20 years ago] Brahim Bouraam: murder of a Moroccan in Paris by a far-right militant [0] - [5 days ago] A jogger thrown into the Seine by a drunken German, another bystander injured [1] I don't think you referred to those actions. > But as long as you give occupants priority and respect in your life, and you respect them Nobody said something remotely related to that in the thread. > don’t say anything about the occupied zone ... I hope that you can still find some enjoyment in the dystopian alternate reality you're experiencing. PS: I lived in a hot district. I haven't been assaulted but I know someone who has been. It hasn't been perpetrated by an immigrant, and nothing happened after. He hasn't been caught, police closed the case, and life went on. It makes me think the problem here is not related to immigrants. But that's anecdata anyway. A study apparently found no correlation between immigration and criminality [2]. [0]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Brahim_Bouraam [1]: https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/4143877-20250317-paris-joggeur-jete-seine-allemand-ivre-autre-passant-blessee https://www.20minutes.fr/faits_divers/faits-divers-paris/414... [2]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study-has-found-any-effect-of-immigration-on-criminality_6023985_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/04/23/no-study...
peterfirefly 2y ago
> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. If that were true, France would have a vastly different immigration policy. It would even have an explicit, drastic, and targeted emigration policy.
- tuetuopay 2y ago
  Since when the general population are the decision makers? /s Well, half /s anyways. Working class don't want them because "they're taking our jobs". Middle class don't want them because "blah blah security". Upper class want them because that's cheap labour. And as it happens, the upper class is the class in power. Most french don't care. But this still creates tensions, even between immigrants, say for like housing. As we say in french, it's a "bourbier". In the end, it's the same situation as in any other country where immigration has taken over the frontline of the political debate.
SJC_Hacker 2y ago
Open source software can definitely be tampered with if the maintainers aren't vigilant enough. Look at what happened with XZ/LZMA debacle a few months ago. Yeah it didn't make it into most distros but still... And the sad reality, the maintainers for most useful OSS projects are essentially paid employees of a company. Which can be easily enticed/forced by governments. And then there's the hardware manufacturers. Even the most hardened software running atop compromised hardware becomes worthless.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nonrandomstring 2y ago

> to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate That's relevant knowledge. It's not the relevant knowledge. Another piece of relevant knowledge is facts about complex things like political science, cryptography, etc. Since politicians actually need to decide and implement things, as a side gig to being popular, lack of the proper knowledge to do so is a shortcoming. > I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is Not big sample sizes, but I regularly ask and interview people from all sides of life, and to a simple question like "Do you think the police should spy on you if that catches criminals?" the answer is always a resounding "no". Especially young people. They just way "No way. We're not criminals". They "arguments" may be choppy, muddy waters, but I don't think peoples feelings about being spied on is much of a mystery.

grvbck 2y ago
Here in Sweden the answer from the general public often is "yes, I am honest and have nothing to hide". Unlike French media, Swedish media does not have a well-developed tradition of confronting those in power and/or demanding accountability. I often get frustrated by how easily interviewees dodge direct questions by answering something completely different, and get a "thank you" from the journalist in return, instead of a follow-up question.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  That sounds like the US in the postwar era, under Eisenhower. It broke down quickly, as the journalists were not slow to catch on when the leaders abused that trust.
- achenet 2y ago
  It's not just our media, it's our culture. We have a looong and storied tradition of not liking the government, starting with our first revolution in 1789, continuing in 1830 and 1848, and further reinforced by the Nazi occupation during WW2. When I went to England, I heard the joke "where are all the French people? Oh right, probably on strike again". I feel like some people would probably go out and protest if the government went so far as to suggest that maybe regular tooth brushing might be a good idea, just out of principle.

BrenBarn 2y ago

One problem is that public opinion is also often at odds with facts. It's not hard to find a sequence of "Do you want X or Y" type questions that will send many people into a circle of intransitive preferences.

palata 2y ago

I think it is a valid point: politicians try to please their voters, and the voters don't know anything about how encryption works. If you tell your voters: "I will force those tech people to develop encryption that can be accessed by the good guys but not by the bad guys", the average voter will say "yeah, that sounds reasonable". I am frustrated that the politicians don't understand that they are making it worse for everybody, but that's probably a consequence of their voters not understanding it either. That's always the problem with complicated issues (e.g. climate change or covid). Voters typically vote without having a basic understanding of the topic.