3 ms·

You cant have this without a great firewall.

slt2021 2y ago
firewall not needed, just need to remove the way for US companies to make money from advertising in Europe. as long as ads money gravy train to USA is stopped, USA companies will leave themselves / or comply
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  How do you stop Europeans from accessing the services?
  - vkou 2y ago
    You stop the firms from getting paid, not Europeans from accessing those services. They'll very quickly figure out how to become compliant.
    - nonethewiser 2y ago
      If a service cant operate in Europe what incentive is there to comply with EU regulation?
      - ahartmetz 2y ago
        Money (which also "enables" compliance)
      - dwattttt 2y ago
        The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU; if a company isn't willing to abide the terms of the license, not operating in the EU is the whole point.
        nonethewiser 2y ago
        > The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU And if they dont, you have to block the service.
        dwattttt 2y ago
        As mentioned elsewhere, no you don't; you block the companies from being paid for providing the service. It's up to the companies to deal with it then.
        nonethewiser 2y ago
        In most cases the company isnt paid by the end EU user. They can still serve ads to EU users. Say Google doesnt play ball with the EU and the EU disallows them from operating in the EU. EU user visits a search page and sees an ad. This ad comes from some company outside the EU. The EU user can access Google and Google gets paid. How do you stop the EU user from accessing Google.
        slt2021 2y ago
        >>some company outside the EU its not relevant, what really is important is Googel/FB siphoning money away from EU companies that pay for ads. This is the source of high valuation of ad driven US businesses: ability to siphon money from businesses around the world simply for showing an ad. Check "Google Tax" if you are familiar with this term Stop that pipeline and big tech will comply
        dwattttt 2y ago
        > In most cases the company isnt paid by the end EU user. They can still serve ads to EU users. You still don't need to specifically block either the EU user or Google's payment for that ad view. To continue with the example, if the EU secures judgement that Google is not stopping services & refuses to abide licensing requirements, other assets Google has within the EU's jurisdiction can be at risk. If a tech company operates in a jurisdiction against their laws, ultimately they would have to make sure they have nothing that can be taken from them there.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    accessing service is a cost center, no need to block service. The revenue stream is European companies paying US companies for ads (or rather European firms paying Irish/Dutch subsidiaries of Gogel/Insta/FB for ads).
    - nonethewiser 2y ago
      Ads would still be served though. You don’t need European companies for that.
vkou 2y ago
You absolutely can, because the companies providing tech services need to get paid, either from local companies buying ad space, or directly from their users, and you can just block payment to non-compliant firms. Given America's hostile stance to its former allies, joint ownership and technology transfer agreements as a condition for its firms operating in the EU market sounds more than reasonable. If US firms aren't happy with this, they can always lobby to impose similar restrictions on foreign big tech firms operating in the US... If there were any. The problem with flipping the table and starting a trade war is everyone loses... And the correct response to someone starting lose-lose games is tit-for-tat. Maybe big tech firms will think twice before throwing their support for an anti-trade candidate. (They absolutely could have used their position in media to stop this insanity, if they wanted to, but now we all have to lie in the bed they've made.)
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  Ad spots dont need to come from local companies. And if they are collecting data against EU regulations how do they stop them? They already aren’t complying with the joint venture in this hypothetical. They dont pay the fine. Then you have to ban them. Thats the dynamic in China. You have a domestic company that owns the operations and is fully regulated bu the host country. And you have to ban anyone that doesn’t cooperate with that model.
- blackqueeriroh 2y ago
  Technology transfer agreements are legalized theft.
  - vkou 2y ago
    If you don't like the rules, you're free to not do business in a sovereign's jurisdiction.
    - nonethewiser 2y ago
      Yes. And then this comes back to the original question: how do you prevent EU users from access their services?
jimnotgym 2y ago
How was the US planning to ban Tiktok without a great firewall? I presume they would demand that internet companies don't route their traffic. Stop them locally caching data etc.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Simply make Google and Apple take it down from their app stores, and it would be de facto banned for 95+% of users.
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  America has a Great Firewall, it's called AppleMobileFileIntegrity.kext[0]. The TikTok ban relied heavily on the fact that a social network practically needs to have a mobile app and thus prohibited them from having it. It was less of a "ban TikTok" bill and more of a "government gets to kick apps off the App Store" bill. Yes, you could use TikTok on the web; but... have you ever tried using TikTok's web interface? It's an absolute joke. And on the other end, shipping a webapp subjects you to all sorts of consumer-friendly technical interference like ad blockers and de-cluttering that is intended to make the social network serve the user and not itself. [0] On Android, TikTok did ship an APK to evade being kicked off Google Play; but that's only slightly more effective than telling people to go run AltStore on a Mac or PC to dev-sign a TikTok IPA that will be missing half the features because Apple doesn't allow certain permissions to be provisioned on free dev accounts.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  But that would be a great firewall if they applied it as broadly as suggested (to all services that dont transfer majority ownership to EU).
fpoling 2y ago
US surely can remove TikTok from the mobile stores and can even force Apple/Google to release an OS update disabling TikTok. That will be sufficient.
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  If the US removed every non US service that doesn’t transfer majority ownership of US operation to a US firm, like he is suggesting the EU does, then yes. That would constitute a Great Firewall. Tiktok is the exception that proves the rule .
maciejw 2y ago
Maybe something as simple as turnover tax would work

slt2021 2y ago

firewall not needed, just need to remove the way for US companies to make money from advertising in Europe. as long as ads money gravy train to USA is stopped, USA companies will leave themselves / or comply

nonethewiser 2y ago
How do you stop Europeans from accessing the services?
- vkou 2y ago
  You stop the firms from getting paid, not Europeans from accessing those services. They'll very quickly figure out how to become compliant.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    If a service cant operate in Europe what incentive is there to comply with EU regulation?
    - ahartmetz 2y ago
      Money (which also "enables" compliance)
    - dwattttt 2y ago
      The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU; if a company isn't willing to abide the terms of the license, not operating in the EU is the whole point.
      - nonethewiser 2y ago
        > The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU And if they dont, you have to block the service.
        dwattttt 2y ago
        As mentioned elsewhere, no you don't; you block the companies from being paid for providing the service. It's up to the companies to deal with it then.
        nonethewiser 2y ago
        In most cases the company isnt paid by the end EU user. They can still serve ads to EU users. Say Google doesnt play ball with the EU and the EU disallows them from operating in the EU. EU user visits a search page and sees an ad. This ad comes from some company outside the EU. The EU user can access Google and Google gets paid. How do you stop the EU user from accessing Google.
        slt2021 2y ago
        >>some company outside the EU its not relevant, what really is important is Googel/FB siphoning money away from EU companies that pay for ads. This is the source of high valuation of ad driven US businesses: ability to siphon money from businesses around the world simply for showing an ad. Check "Google Tax" if you are familiar with this term Stop that pipeline and big tech will comply
        dwattttt 2y ago
        > In most cases the company isnt paid by the end EU user. They can still serve ads to EU users. You still don't need to specifically block either the EU user or Google's payment for that ad view. To continue with the example, if the EU secures judgement that Google is not stopping services & refuses to abide licensing requirements, other assets Google has within the EU's jurisdiction can be at risk. If a tech company operates in a jurisdiction against their laws, ultimately they would have to make sure they have nothing that can be taken from them there.
- slt2021 2y ago
  accessing service is a cost center, no need to block service. The revenue stream is European companies paying US companies for ads (or rather European firms paying Irish/Dutch subsidiaries of Gogel/Insta/FB for ads).
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    Ads would still be served though. You don’t need European companies for that.

vkou 2y ago

You absolutely can, because the companies providing tech services need to get paid, either from local companies buying ad space, or directly from their users, and you can just block payment to non-compliant firms. Given America's hostile stance to its former allies, joint ownership and technology transfer agreements as a condition for its firms operating in the EU market sounds more than reasonable. If US firms aren't happy with this, they can always lobby to impose similar restrictions on foreign big tech firms operating in the US... If there were any. The problem with flipping the table and starting a trade war is everyone loses... And the correct response to someone starting lose-lose games is tit-for-tat. Maybe big tech firms will think twice before throwing their support for an anti-trade candidate. (They absolutely could have used their position in media to stop this insanity, if they wanted to, but now we all have to lie in the bed they've made.)

nonethewiser 2y ago
Ad spots dont need to come from local companies. And if they are collecting data against EU regulations how do they stop them? They already aren’t complying with the joint venture in this hypothetical. They dont pay the fine. Then you have to ban them. Thats the dynamic in China. You have a domestic company that owns the operations and is fully regulated bu the host country. And you have to ban anyone that doesn’t cooperate with that model.
blackqueeriroh 2y ago
Technology transfer agreements are legalized theft.
- vkou 2y ago
  If you don't like the rules, you're free to not do business in a sovereign's jurisdiction.
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    Yes. And then this comes back to the original question: how do you prevent EU users from access their services?

jimnotgym 2y ago

How was the US planning to ban Tiktok without a great firewall? I presume they would demand that internet companies don't route their traffic. Stop them locally caching data etc.

IncreasePosts 2y ago
Simply make Google and Apple take it down from their app stores, and it would be de facto banned for 95+% of users.
kmeisthax 2y ago
America has a Great Firewall, it's called AppleMobileFileIntegrity.kext[0]. The TikTok ban relied heavily on the fact that a social network practically needs to have a mobile app and thus prohibited them from having it. It was less of a "ban TikTok" bill and more of a "government gets to kick apps off the App Store" bill. Yes, you could use TikTok on the web; but... have you ever tried using TikTok's web interface? It's an absolute joke. And on the other end, shipping a webapp subjects you to all sorts of consumer-friendly technical interference like ad blockers and de-cluttering that is intended to make the social network serve the user and not itself. [0] On Android, TikTok did ship an APK to evade being kicked off Google Play; but that's only slightly more effective than telling people to go run AltStore on a Mac or PC to dev-sign a TikTok IPA that will be missing half the features because Apple doesn't allow certain permissions to be provisioned on free dev accounts.
nonethewiser 2y ago
But that would be a great firewall if they applied it as broadly as suggested (to all services that dont transfer majority ownership to EU).

fpoling 2y ago

US surely can remove TikTok from the mobile stores and can even force Apple/Google to release an OS update disabling TikTok. That will be sufficient.

nonethewiser 2y ago
If the US removed every non US service that doesn’t transfer majority ownership of US operation to a US firm, like he is suggesting the EU does, then yes. That would constitute a Great Firewall. Tiktok is the exception that proves the rule .

maciejw 2y ago

Maybe something as simple as turnover tax would work