5 ms·

personally, I think the way to deal with this is the way the Chinese have done it (very successfully) if US "gatekeepers" wish to operate in the European marke

personally, I think the way to deal with this is the way the Chinese have done it (very successfully) if US "gatekeepers" wish to operate in the European market, it will be under license, with a joint venture that is majority controlled by European shareholders, with technology transfer agreements essentially: using their own greed against them and if they don't like it, they can operate somewhere else

apwell23 2y ago
Chinese do it to steal IP from their joint venture
- blibble 2y ago
  I would relish the irony of having Google, Microsoft and Facebook complain about IP theft whilst their AI crawlers plunder any and all copyrighted material ever placed on the internet
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    But other search engines already crawl Google's websites. If we want to call that IP theft. The alleged IP theft against Google would be new and of a different kind than what Google is committing. Again, if we want to call web crawling IP theft. Which seems dubious.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    This. These are the kinds of hypocrisies that I'm talking about when I say that American companies from Amazon to Tesla are also responsible for the worsening fracture between the US and EU. Trump and Vance should not escape responsibility for their share of this fiasco. But this transatlantic break is something that was very much a team effort. And as a team we in the US have been, perhaps unwittingly, working towards this hostility for a long time.
  - blackqueeriroh 2y ago
    As do the Chinese and European AI companies as well.
nonethewiser 2y ago
You cant have this without a great firewall.
- slt2021 2y ago
  firewall not needed, just need to remove the way for US companies to make money from advertising in Europe. as long as ads money gravy train to USA is stopped, USA companies will leave themselves / or comply
  - nonethewiser 2y ago
    How do you stop Europeans from accessing the services?
    - vkou 2y ago
      You stop the firms from getting paid, not Europeans from accessing those services. They'll very quickly figure out how to become compliant.
      - nonethewiser 2y ago
        If a service cant operate in Europe what incentive is there to comply with EU regulation?
        ahartmetz 2y ago
        Money (which also "enables" compliance)
        dwattttt 2y ago
        The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU; if a company isn't willing to abide the terms of the license, not operating in the EU is the whole point.
        2y ago
bilbo0s 2y ago
Yeah. I think regulations of that nature may be coming. I think in the US, we've put ourselves in a really bad spot. Most will likely blame Trump/Vance, and they definitely deserve their share. But the American tech industry has been contributing its quota towards this break for a long time as well. And we should be honest about that. Also, I know that no one will want to hear this on HN, but workers at American companies have also not made us any friends in Europe. There is a strong undercurrent of resentment due to some American workers not having the ability to maintain a humble and collaborative demeanor online or IRL.
- blibble 2y ago
  > I think in the US, we've put ourselves in a really bad spot. Most will likely blame Trump/Vance, and they definitely deserve their share. But the American tech industry has been contributing its quota towards this break for a long time as well. And we should be honest about that. I think that televised meeting with Zelensky was a wake-up call to many people, including myself we can't allow ourselves to become any more dependent on the country that elected this regime, and not once (because a mistake can be forgiven), but twice the current dependency also needs to be reduced to ensure the long survival of our societies and way of life
dmix 2y ago
The only countries that do this in the world are China and Iran. Russia and India do it partially, such as rules for storing data domestically so they can snoop on it. Apple has a company called GCBD running their iCloud so the Chinese gov can access it https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html?unlocked_article_code=1.5k4.9qhO.7skP35hQuTqY&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce... Google, LinkedIn, Uber, etc left China. Meta refused to do a joint venture so never entered the market. The only big American names who did a joint venture were Apple and Tesl
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  TikTok?
  - dmix 2y ago
    There is no law in America requiring domestic joint ventures. The Tiktok law gives the US gov power to ban social media companies controlled by a "U.S. foreign adversary" (only 6 countries) and offers the chance for divestment, but doesn't require moving operations to the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Foreign_Adversary_Controlled_Applications_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Fore...
throw_a_grenade 2y ago
The first sector this happens is defence industry, one of the US of A's biggest exports. EU already decided that weapons will need to be at least 65% manufactured in Europe: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-freeze-us-multi-billion-defense-plan-arm-makers/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-freeze-us-multi-billion-d...
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  That's what happens when the USA won't let European countries buy the weapons they want
  - throw_a_grenade 2y ago
    Specifically, weapons over which we won't have full control after we take delivery. There's another point in that agreement, design authority over those weapons must be in EU — e.g. no licenced components (even 100% manufactured in Europe) that USA needs to provide software updates for.

apwell23 2y ago

Chinese do it to steal IP from their joint venture

blibble 2y ago
I would relish the irony of having Google, Microsoft and Facebook complain about IP theft whilst their AI crawlers plunder any and all copyrighted material ever placed on the internet
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  But other search engines already crawl Google's websites. If we want to call that IP theft. The alleged IP theft against Google would be new and of a different kind than what Google is committing. Again, if we want to call web crawling IP theft. Which seems dubious.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  This. These are the kinds of hypocrisies that I'm talking about when I say that American companies from Amazon to Tesla are also responsible for the worsening fracture between the US and EU. Trump and Vance should not escape responsibility for their share of this fiasco. But this transatlantic break is something that was very much a team effort. And as a team we in the US have been, perhaps unwittingly, working towards this hostility for a long time.
- blackqueeriroh 2y ago
  As do the Chinese and European AI companies as well.

nonethewiser 2y ago

You cant have this without a great firewall.

slt2021 2y ago
firewall not needed, just need to remove the way for US companies to make money from advertising in Europe. as long as ads money gravy train to USA is stopped, USA companies will leave themselves / or comply
- nonethewiser 2y ago
  How do you stop Europeans from accessing the services?
  - vkou 2y ago
    You stop the firms from getting paid, not Europeans from accessing those services. They'll very quickly figure out how to become compliant.
    - nonethewiser 2y ago
      If a service cant operate in Europe what incentive is there to comply with EU regulation?
      - ahartmetz 2y ago
        Money (which also "enables" compliance)
      - dwattttt 2y ago
        The context of this is considering requiring companies to pay/acquire a licence to operate in the EU; if a company isn't willing to abide the terms of the license, not operating in the EU is the whole point.
        2y ago

bilbo0s 2y ago

Yeah. I think regulations of that nature may be coming. I think in the US, we've put ourselves in a really bad spot. Most will likely blame Trump/Vance, and they definitely deserve their share. But the American tech industry has been contributing its quota towards this break for a long time as well. And we should be honest about that. Also, I know that no one will want to hear this on HN, but workers at American companies have also not made us any friends in Europe. There is a strong undercurrent of resentment due to some American workers not having the ability to maintain a humble and collaborative demeanor online or IRL.

blibble 2y ago
> I think in the US, we've put ourselves in a really bad spot. Most will likely blame Trump/Vance, and they definitely deserve their share. But the American tech industry has been contributing its quota towards this break for a long time as well. And we should be honest about that. I think that televised meeting with Zelensky was a wake-up call to many people, including myself we can't allow ourselves to become any more dependent on the country that elected this regime, and not once (because a mistake can be forgiven), but twice the current dependency also needs to be reduced to ensure the long survival of our societies and way of life

dmix 2y ago

The only countries that do this in the world are China and Iran. Russia and India do it partially, such as rules for storing data domestically so they can snoop on it. Apple has a company called GCBD running their iCloud so the Chinese gov can access it https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-censorship-data.html?unlocked_article_code=1.5k4.9qhO.7skP35hQuTqY&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce... Google, LinkedIn, Uber, etc left China. Meta refused to do a joint venture so never entered the market. The only big American names who did a joint venture were Apple and Tesl

ashoeafoot 2y ago
TikTok?
- dmix 2y ago
  There is no law in America requiring domestic joint ventures. The Tiktok law gives the US gov power to ban social media companies controlled by a "U.S. foreign adversary" (only 6 countries) and offers the chance for divestment, but doesn't require moving operations to the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Foreign_Adversary_Controlled_Applications_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Fore...

throw_a_grenade 2y ago

The first sector this happens is defence industry, one of the US of A's biggest exports. EU already decided that weapons will need to be at least 65% manufactured in Europe: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-freeze-us-multi-billion-defense-plan-arm-makers/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-freeze-us-multi-billion-d...

jimnotgym 2y ago
That's what happens when the USA won't let European countries buy the weapons they want
- throw_a_grenade 2y ago
  Specifically, weapons over which we won't have full control after we take delivery. There's another point in that agreement, design authority over those weapons must be in EU — e.g. no licenced components (even 100% manufactured in Europe) that USA needs to provide software updates for.