5 ms·

I second this, and it tends to be a sitewide issue. HN has really changed over the past 5+ years: went from healthy or interesting skepticism to reddit-style sn

by dvt 2y ago

I second this, and it tends to be a sitewide issue. HN has really changed over the past 5+ years: went from healthy or interesting skepticism to reddit-style snarkiness and shitposting.

acdha 2y ago
There’s always been some of that but it does feel like it’s getting worse. I think there’s a general shift in how people approach Skinner-ized apps and social media, where a couple of generations have been trained to prioritize a number going up, but also something about how politics became both post-factual and unavoidable even in communities which used to avoid it, all of which has driven a lot of former contributors away. I’m not sure how to rebalance things - and certainly won’t claim to be perfect about not taking the bait myself – but it seems to be slowly starving a lot of communities which don’t have some in-person anchoring.
- umeshunni 2y ago
  > Skinner-ized What does this mean? A quick Google search didn't help me
  - mlekoszek 2y ago
    Arranged like a Skinner box -- something which dispenses reward stimuli for desired behaviours with the aim of maximizing those behaviours. Interestingly, a Skinner box can be made to dispense rewards randomly after a while, or stop dispensing them entirely -- but the desired behaviour is likely to continue. Think doomscrolling, slot machines, loot boxes, dating apps, etc. A worthwhile survey of this I was introduced to in my undergrad: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...
  - acdha 2y ago
    mlekoszek answered very well, so I won’t duplicate their comment but I will note that I used to work with a bunch of neuroscientists and a number of grad students were recruited by tech companies specifically to use their knowledge of human behaviour and addition to boost “engagement” and revenue. There was some talk about ethics but even back then people knew those companies meant it about as much as big tobacco had.
    - d34db33n0car 2y ago
      [dead]
mmooss 2y ago
You might read the guidelines, much older than five years, about saying HN has changed, and also saying it's more like reddit.
- lordnacho 2y ago
  I don't think I've ever been on a forum that doesn't have comments to that effect regularly. "It was better a few years ago, it's all going to hell now, we're becoming Reddit/4Chan/Slashdot" It's the internet forum version of "the youth has gotten lazy, it weren't like this when I were a lad"
  - borgdefenser 2y ago
    I was on usenet in 1995 but I have heard that was too late and usenet already sucked then. In all fairness too, my 17 year old self who knew basically nothing about the world ,really did add absolutely nothing of value to the usenet discussions I participated in besides noise. Of course, at the time I thought the complete opposite. The thing that amuses me most is at the time there would have been a lot of "pro communism" in my responses on anything society related even though I knew absolutely nothing about communism and even less about economics as a whole. I think this is just the way semi-anon discussions with big age and generation gaps go.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      If you live long enough, you might look back at your understanding now and say the same thing. Maybe what we should learn is not to be so certain about our current knowledge.
    - awesome_dude 2y ago
      > I was on usenet in 1995 but I have heard that was too late and usenet already sucked then. BBS were cool(er) :-)
    - addaon 2y ago
      > In all fairness too, my 17 year old self who knew basically nothing about the world ,really did add absolutely nothing of value to the usenet discussions I participated in besides noise. Of course, at the time I thought the complete opposite. Me too!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
booleandilemma 2y ago
This is refreshing to hear compared to all of the "HN is becoming Reddit, omg!" comments and threads that pop up every couple weeks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=380385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=380385 From 2008 :)
- mlekoszek 2y ago
  Unless, of course, it continually has been becoming Reddit, but Reddit has been constantly changing too ;)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jader201 2y ago
From the guidelines [1]: > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. (With that last sentence linking to 9 examples in [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- simonsarris 2y ago
  You don't think it's changed? You've been here about as long as we have. At some point you can't rely on it being a noob illusion if a place actually does change. The guideline is not a magic incantation that prevents it from never becoming false. Snarky replies used to be routinely downvoted swiftly, now they are not.
  - jader201 2y ago
    I’m not arguing either side. Just saying that the meta discussion is a discussion that the guidelines try to discourage. IOW, it’s not really relevant to the article, so it’s not promoting curious, interesting discussion. So both this discussion as well as the snarky comments you’re arguing against are both not following the guidelines of trying to keep discussion curious and interesting.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    The downvoting here (as well as comment scoring) is probably my least liked thing about the site. It exacerbates the already prominent issue of hivemind and seems to actively lower the quality of discussion. People seem to mostly vote based on emotional reaction. On paper, a downvote just doubles the value of a vote. Meanwhile the graying of comments that never deserved to be downvoted to begin with is infuriating and seems to mostly stifle interesting conversation. Personally, I advocate for abolishing the downvote and the scoring and switching to randomized comment order.
    - 2y ago
ForTheKidz 2y ago
That's hardly isolated to this site. COVID did a number on us. Fwiw, people have been saying this since the site started. Don't worry. There will always be a safe space for rich assholes to divorce themselves from reality and romanticize their exploitation.

by dvt 2y ago

I second this, and it tends to be a sitewide issue. HN has really changed over the past 5+ years: went from healthy or interesting skepticism to reddit-style snarkiness and shitposting.

acdha 2y ago

There’s always been some of that but it does feel like it’s getting worse. I think there’s a general shift in how people approach Skinner-ized apps and social media, where a couple of generations have been trained to prioritize a number going up, but also something about how politics became both post-factual and unavoidable even in communities which used to avoid it, all of which has driven a lot of former contributors away. I’m not sure how to rebalance things - and certainly won’t claim to be perfect about not taking the bait myself – but it seems to be slowly starving a lot of communities which don’t have some in-person anchoring.

umeshunni 2y ago
> Skinner-ized What does this mean? A quick Google search didn't help me
- mlekoszek 2y ago
  Arranged like a Skinner box -- something which dispenses reward stimuli for desired behaviours with the aim of maximizing those behaviours. Interestingly, a Skinner box can be made to dispense rewards randomly after a while, or stop dispensing them entirely -- but the desired behaviour is likely to continue. Think doomscrolling, slot machines, loot boxes, dating apps, etc. A worthwhile survey of this I was introduced to in my undergrad: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...
- acdha 2y ago
  mlekoszek answered very well, so I won’t duplicate their comment but I will note that I used to work with a bunch of neuroscientists and a number of grad students were recruited by tech companies specifically to use their knowledge of human behaviour and addition to boost “engagement” and revenue. There was some talk about ethics but even back then people knew those companies meant it about as much as big tobacco had.
  - d34db33n0car 2y ago
    [dead]

mmooss 2y ago

You might read the guidelines, much older than five years, about saying HN has changed, and also saying it's more like reddit.

lordnacho 2y ago
I don't think I've ever been on a forum that doesn't have comments to that effect regularly. "It was better a few years ago, it's all going to hell now, we're becoming Reddit/4Chan/Slashdot" It's the internet forum version of "the youth has gotten lazy, it weren't like this when I were a lad"
- borgdefenser 2y ago
  I was on usenet in 1995 but I have heard that was too late and usenet already sucked then. In all fairness too, my 17 year old self who knew basically nothing about the world ,really did add absolutely nothing of value to the usenet discussions I participated in besides noise. Of course, at the time I thought the complete opposite. The thing that amuses me most is at the time there would have been a lot of "pro communism" in my responses on anything society related even though I knew absolutely nothing about communism and even less about economics as a whole. I think this is just the way semi-anon discussions with big age and generation gaps go.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    If you live long enough, you might look back at your understanding now and say the same thing. Maybe what we should learn is not to be so certain about our current knowledge.
  - awesome_dude 2y ago
    > I was on usenet in 1995 but I have heard that was too late and usenet already sucked then. BBS were cool(er) :-)
  - addaon 2y ago
    > In all fairness too, my 17 year old self who knew basically nothing about the world ,really did add absolutely nothing of value to the usenet discussions I participated in besides noise. Of course, at the time I thought the complete opposite. Me too!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

booleandilemma 2y ago

This is refreshing to hear compared to all of the "HN is becoming Reddit, omg!" comments and threads that pop up every couple weeks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=380385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=380385 From 2008 :)

mlekoszek 2y ago
Unless, of course, it continually has been becoming Reddit, but Reddit has been constantly changing too ;)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jader201 2y ago

From the guidelines [1]: > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. (With that last sentence linking to 9 examples in [1].) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

simonsarris 2y ago
You don't think it's changed? You've been here about as long as we have. At some point you can't rely on it being a noob illusion if a place actually does change. The guideline is not a magic incantation that prevents it from never becoming false. Snarky replies used to be routinely downvoted swiftly, now they are not.
- jader201 2y ago
  I’m not arguing either side. Just saying that the meta discussion is a discussion that the guidelines try to discourage. IOW, it’s not really relevant to the article, so it’s not promoting curious, interesting discussion. So both this discussion as well as the snarky comments you’re arguing against are both not following the guidelines of trying to keep discussion curious and interesting.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  The downvoting here (as well as comment scoring) is probably my least liked thing about the site. It exacerbates the already prominent issue of hivemind and seems to actively lower the quality of discussion. People seem to mostly vote based on emotional reaction. On paper, a downvote just doubles the value of a vote. Meanwhile the graying of comments that never deserved to be downvoted to begin with is infuriating and seems to mostly stifle interesting conversation. Personally, I advocate for abolishing the downvote and the scoring and switching to randomized comment order.
  - 2y ago

ForTheKidz 2y ago

That's hardly isolated to this site. COVID did a number on us. Fwiw, people have been saying this since the site started. Don't worry. There will always be a safe space for rich assholes to divorce themselves from reality and romanticize their exploitation.