6 ms·

And replace with what, more regulations? Source: am a startup in the EU. The amount of bureaucracy is kafkaesque.

by egorfine 2y ago

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
Where in the EU?
- egorfine 2y ago
  rn I'm in Poland, where things are still sane. I have tried in Germany as well, and that's just impossible.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    Oh, it’s possible in Germany. What problems do you have in Poland?
    - egorfine 2y ago
      > Oh, it’s possible in Germany Of course. How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. Otherwise sure it's possible.
      - 4ggr0 2y ago
        always amusing when people realize that workers have and deserve rights in other parts of the world.
        egorfine 2y ago
        Social security is an incredibly good thing. It defines Europe. There's a price for it and that's what we're discussing here.
      - cess11 2y ago
        If you have a reason, just terminate the contract? That's how it works in pretty much all of the EU.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        It’s not so easy in Germany when the company has 10+ employees. You need a process consisting of warnings, giving time to correct the behaviour and what not. There are cases where people who have been terminated for sexual misconduct or stealing have been ordered by the court to return to work.
        cess11 2y ago
        Sure it is. I suspect the reason that you didn't provide any details from those cases is that the judgements wouldn't be surprising if you did. If you really want to be able to get rid of people willy-nilly in Germany, use subcontractors and 'rent' the labour you need.
      - crote 2y ago
        Oh, you can. You just need to provide a valid reason, that's all. Firing someone because they are stealing from the company, harassing a coworker, consistently underperforming, or because you're shutting down a business unit? Easy! Firing someone because it's a Tuesday, or because they got pregnant? Sorry, can't do that.
        egorfine 2y ago
        Collecting data in order to come up with a valid reason is prohibited. Like, impossible to fire a programmer if he only does a bare minimum and simply is not productive.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Unless you have a valid suspicion. However, you have to tell the employee he is under observation.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - atwrk 2y ago
        > How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. It's easy to fire employees in Germany (especially in small shops), e.g. when they steal, are always late, are badmouthing colleagues, are talking about company internals, are insolent to customers, deliver bad work, and on and on. You simply have to follow a defined process (basically at least one written warning for the same thing before firing). What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. Source: I had to fire multiple people in Germany.
        egorfine 2y ago
        > What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. This is kind of double-sided coin. Like, people are feeling protected and have a sense of security and that's what defines Europe. On the other hand, businesses hands are tied and they cannot scale dynamically as in the US. > follow a defined process And that's the main problem in the EU. There's a process for everything and sometimes it's a burden and limits the abilities to change things.
        kennysoona 2y ago
        > What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. What about if you just don't feel they are a good fit anymore, even if you can't show why based purely on numbers. Is any amount of advance notice sufficient to allow that?
        acdha 2y ago
        The problem with “even if you can’t show why” is that it often means wrong gender, race, religion, political affiliation, drinking club, etc. A better question would be whether you could articulate what change you’re looking for and show that this standard was clearly communicated and applied to the entire team.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Why not? How many fo you have?
      - sebazzz 2y ago
        You don't like worker rights. You should have written that. That is not bureaucracy.
boobsbr 2y ago
Am working for a large company in the EU. The amount of bureaucracy is insane.
radicalbyte 2y ago
The US is little different in many areas, it's just that the EU is less integrated so there are bigger differences between EU Member States than US States.
crote 2y ago
Funny, because those motions were for a good part inspired by local companies complaining that they weren't even approached prior to critical infrastructure being outsourced to Amazon. There's undoubtedly bureaucracy, but that hasn't stopped local companies from popping up. The bigger problem is CxOs thinking a transition to $LocalCorp would look less sexy on their resumé than a transition to Amazon or Azure. Besides, when US tech companies operate in the EU, they still have to follow all those regulations. They don't get an exception for being based in the US. If anything, it should be easier for a small local company to operate.
- egorfine 2y ago
  I'd love to become a larger AWS competitor for a certain service. I've got a colocation agreement in a large local datacenter, a few racks of servers are humming day and night and you know what? The more energy I consume, the more I pay per kw/h because green. Yeah, sure, you are welcome to scale up and compete with AWS.

And replace with what, more regulations? Source: am a startup in the EU. The amount of bureaucracy is kafkaesque.

rad_gruchalski 2y ago

Where in the EU?

egorfine 2y ago
rn I'm in Poland, where things are still sane. I have tried in Germany as well, and that's just impossible.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  Oh, it’s possible in Germany. What problems do you have in Poland?
  - egorfine 2y ago
    > Oh, it’s possible in Germany Of course. How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. Otherwise sure it's possible.
    - 4ggr0 2y ago
      always amusing when people realize that workers have and deserve rights in other parts of the world.
      - egorfine 2y ago
        Social security is an incredibly good thing. It defines Europe. There's a price for it and that's what we're discussing here.
    - cess11 2y ago
      If you have a reason, just terminate the contract? That's how it works in pretty much all of the EU.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        It’s not so easy in Germany when the company has 10+ employees. You need a process consisting of warnings, giving time to correct the behaviour and what not. There are cases where people who have been terminated for sexual misconduct or stealing have been ordered by the court to return to work.
        cess11 2y ago
        Sure it is. I suspect the reason that you didn't provide any details from those cases is that the judgements wouldn't be surprising if you did. If you really want to be able to get rid of people willy-nilly in Germany, use subcontractors and 'rent' the labour you need.
    - crote 2y ago
      Oh, you can. You just need to provide a valid reason, that's all. Firing someone because they are stealing from the company, harassing a coworker, consistently underperforming, or because you're shutting down a business unit? Easy! Firing someone because it's a Tuesday, or because they got pregnant? Sorry, can't do that.
      - egorfine 2y ago
        Collecting data in order to come up with a valid reason is prohibited. Like, impossible to fire a programmer if he only does a bare minimum and simply is not productive.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Unless you have a valid suspicion. However, you have to tell the employee he is under observation.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - atwrk 2y ago
      > How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. It's easy to fire employees in Germany (especially in small shops), e.g. when they steal, are always late, are badmouthing colleagues, are talking about company internals, are insolent to customers, deliver bad work, and on and on. You simply have to follow a defined process (basically at least one written warning for the same thing before firing). What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. Source: I had to fire multiple people in Germany.
      - egorfine 2y ago
        > What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. This is kind of double-sided coin. Like, people are feeling protected and have a sense of security and that's what defines Europe. On the other hand, businesses hands are tied and they cannot scale dynamically as in the US. > follow a defined process And that's the main problem in the EU. There's a process for everything and sometimes it's a burden and limits the abilities to change things.
      - kennysoona 2y ago
        > What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that. What about if you just don't feel they are a good fit anymore, even if you can't show why based purely on numbers. Is any amount of advance notice sufficient to allow that?
        acdha 2y ago
        The problem with “even if you can’t show why” is that it often means wrong gender, race, religion, political affiliation, drinking club, etc. A better question would be whether you could articulate what change you’re looking for and show that this standard was clearly communicated and applied to the entire team.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      Why not? How many fo you have?
    - sebazzz 2y ago
      You don't like worker rights. You should have written that. That is not bureaucracy.

boobsbr 2y ago

Am working for a large company in the EU. The amount of bureaucracy is insane.

radicalbyte 2y ago

The US is little different in many areas, it's just that the EU is less integrated so there are bigger differences between EU Member States than US States.

crote 2y ago

Funny, because those motions were for a good part inspired by local companies complaining that they weren't even approached prior to critical infrastructure being outsourced to Amazon. There's undoubtedly bureaucracy, but that hasn't stopped local companies from popping up. The bigger problem is CxOs thinking a transition to $LocalCorp would look less sexy on their resumé than a transition to Amazon or Azure. Besides, when US tech companies operate in the EU, they still have to follow all those regulations. They don't get an exception for being based in the US. If anything, it should be easier for a small local company to operate.

egorfine 2y ago
I'd love to become a larger AWS competitor for a certain service. I've got a colocation agreement in a large local datacenter, a few racks of servers are humming day and night and you know what? The more energy I consume, the more I pay per kw/h because green. Yeah, sure, you are welcome to scale up and compete with AWS.