5 ms·

For Many of America's Aging Workers, 'Retirement Is a Distant Dream'

94 points by geox 2y ago

jampekka 2y ago
I was quite surprised on a Florida trip that there were a lot of old (clearly past retirement age) people doing service work in e.g. fast food restaurants and grocery stores. It's rare to see even middle aged people in those where I'm from. Probably largely due to differences in the pension systems.
- josefritzishere 2y ago
  Florida has a very large retiree population, that may correspond to a large un-retiree population too.
  - black_13 2y ago
    [dead]
- Yeul 2y ago
  Yeah usually the only people over 40 working in a restaurant are the chef or the boss.
black_13 2y ago
# Why No One Touched This Post on Economic Insecurity in Aging America I just read a sobering TIME article about America's aging workers who can't afford to retire. It profiles 69-year-old Walter Carpenter, working physical jobs despite peripheral neuropathy, bad knees and hips - one of the growing percentage of Americans 65+ still in the workforce (19% today vs 10% forty years ago). Here's what's interesting: This shouldn't be partisan. The systematic dismantling of retirement security (shifting from pensions to 401(k)s, stagnant wages, rising costs) has created a reality where people work 55 years and still can't stop. As someone who's 59 and facing this reality myself, it's deeply personal. The most telling quote: "What will happen when, as a friend so aptly put it, I become 'too frail to work and too poor to live?'" I suspect this post got no traction because: 1. It's uncomfortable - forces us to confront the human cost of our economic system 2. Doesn't fit neatly into tech-optimism or "just learn to code" narratives 3. Reveals the failure of the meritocracy myth many in tech believe in 4. Lacks an easy solution (auto-IRAs are mentioned but too late for current older workers) 5. Hits too close to home for many in their 40s/50s who fear the same fate The discussion we're avoiding is: what happens when a lifetime of work doesn't guarantee basic security in old age? And what does that say about the system we've built?
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  > I suspect this post got no traction because: It's been up for an hour and is still on the front page. Seems a bit early to declare "no traction".
lotsofpulp 2y ago
> Or perhaps they were on track to quit at 65 until the stock market took a dive. [and they liquidated all their assets at the bottom of a market against all mainstream advice]
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  This happened to several senior colleagues of mine circa 2008. They were overinvested in stocks (for their age and retirement timeline) and when the market took a nosedive several made rash decisions to sell rather than wait. While they may not have recovered within their desired timeframe, they would have been better off waiting and getting something back instead of selling near the bottom.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    It only took 6 years for SP500 to return to its peak. If they were planning for a retirement longer than 6 years, they would have gotten a ton more back. All you have to do is hold bonds or treasuries for the next few years worth of expenses, and then let the federal government take a few years to pump up the markets again. If that doesn’t happen, then you have bigger things to worry about than your 401k balance.
bilbo0s 2y ago
What's most interesting here is that the promoted solutions are untested. We won't know how well IRA/401k etc works until we get a couple of generations under our belt who use that system instead of pensions. So, unfortunately, I'm thinking the GenX'ers and the Millennials will be the involuntary guinea pigs as they age into retirement. If it doesn't work, there will be little we can do for those generations of retirees. I can't say whether or not individual funded retirement will work? But just back of the napkin sort of guesstimate at whether a lifetime of saving plus interest can net you 30 years of livable yearly interest or drawdowns (assuming social security) + the necessary medicare supplements/or health insurance? I don't know? It seems unlikely. And again, all that is under the rosy scenario where social security still exists. If social security is changed, the picture is even more bleak. I could be wrong, but I think people are going to need to acclimate themselves to working through much of retirement. How much will likely depend on how well you did saving. But I suspect a sizable majority of GenX and Millennials will have no choice in the matter. Watching the current retirees may make us sad, but these scenarios may be nothing compared to what's coming.
- cogman10 2y ago
  They are tested and the results have already been a disaster. People don't save for 401ks. And why would they? The fact is, when you are living paycheck to paycheck, retirement takes a backseat to rent. And even when they do save, we are currently looking at a market downturn. The last 5 years have been pretty rough in terms of the stock market with returns being much lower than you might count on. There is an option, it's fully funding social security by lifting the income cap. It's silly that you get a tax break on SS simply by making too much money. The biggest threats to the average person being able to retire is the government gutting, dismantling, and/or privatizing Medicaid, Medicare, and social security. With those gone, yeah grandma is going to have to work in the Foxconn factory to avoid eating catfood. It's not completely hopeless, but people really need to be informed on this. We are running headlong into this problem because neither party wants to raise taxes to fund these essential programs. This is a government problem to solve which is best solved by a government agency. It will be a disaster if private corporate leaches get involved, matching the current state of healthcare for anyone not disabled or younger than 65. For anyone that advocates UBI. That's what social security is, UBI (with an age restriction).
cytocync 2y ago
[dead]
alkonaut 2y ago
That was the biggest shock to me when visiting the US. Not seeeing tip choices 15,20,25 or bars with parking lots, it was seeing people clearly over 70 working jobs you rarely see anyone over 25 doing elsewhere. Even physical and/or poorly paying jobs (mailmen, cleaning, fast food).
- brg 2y ago
  You should have talked to them instead of assuming it was out of necessity. My parents retired in n social security ten years ago. Most of their friends are doing fine with savings and retirement, but they get bored and take a job at Walmart or Applebees. For the most part they enjoy it.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    I friend of mine retired, but decided to do some consulting on the side. Even though he didn't need the money, he charged his normal rate, because he didn't want to depress the market. If the friends of your parents are willing to work for birdseed because they don't need the money, then it drives down the salary for those who need a job.
    - bestouff 2y ago
      "Didn't want to depress the market seems deeply un-American. They have that religious belief in the market magic hand that auto-regulates everything whatever you do. Me first, the market will solve it.
      - eesmith 2y ago
        He's British. English to be precise. So yes, un-American.
    - blitzar 2y ago
      I have done some fine work for people for free and some average work for people for expensive fees. People value the work by how much they paid for it.
Gothmog69 2y ago
20 an hour USD is what a dev makes in Canada. Crazy he couldn't save up enough in America to retire. Also crazy to read a sob story about the working poor in America and think... "must be nice"
- intelVISA 2y ago
  Wow, at that rate I'm surprised we don't see more Canadian startups. Solo SaaS could make 10x that, maybe they don't have many devs that actually ship value?
  - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
    That's a junior dev rate, and a low one. A good job for a new grad would be USD 30/hour.
    - intelVISA 2y ago
      Right so at those rates why don't more Canadians gamble on running their own shop? Not like a CAN company selling worldwide, paying 1/3 salaries, only makes 1/3 the revenue? Unless corp taxes are 3x US?
      - willhslade 2y ago
        Market is 1/10th USA size.
      - Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
        Well, seniors in Vancouver can go for 160k/year (cad), still low for the cost of life, but better. 180 for lead is possible too. Over that I don't know.
- badc0ffee 2y ago
  I don't think that's quite true. When I was working for a large/stable/boring company in Calgary, the lowest paid green devs made more than C$56k/year.
tennisflyi 2y ago
Y’all balk at six figures salaries. Most will never see them

94 points by geox 2y ago

I was quite surprised on a Florida trip that there were a lot of old (clearly past retirement age) people doing service work in e.g. fast food restaurants and grocery stores. It's rare to see even middle aged people in those where I'm from. Probably largely due to differences in the pension systems.

josefritzishere 2y ago
Florida has a very large retiree population, that may correspond to a large un-retiree population too.
- black_13 2y ago
  [dead]
Yeul 2y ago
Yeah usually the only people over 40 working in a restaurant are the chef or the boss.

black_13 2y ago

# Why No One Touched This Post on Economic Insecurity in Aging America I just read a sobering TIME article about America's aging workers who can't afford to retire. It profiles 69-year-old Walter Carpenter, working physical jobs despite peripheral neuropathy, bad knees and hips - one of the growing percentage of Americans 65+ still in the workforce (19% today vs 10% forty years ago). Here's what's interesting: This shouldn't be partisan. The systematic dismantling of retirement security (shifting from pensions to 401(k)s, stagnant wages, rising costs) has created a reality where people work 55 years and still can't stop. As someone who's 59 and facing this reality myself, it's deeply personal. The most telling quote: "What will happen when, as a friend so aptly put it, I become 'too frail to work and too poor to live?'" I suspect this post got no traction because: 1. It's uncomfortable - forces us to confront the human cost of our economic system 2. Doesn't fit neatly into tech-optimism or "just learn to code" narratives 3. Reveals the failure of the meritocracy myth many in tech believe in 4. Lacks an easy solution (auto-IRAs are mentioned but too late for current older workers) 5. Hits too close to home for many in their 40s/50s who fear the same fate The discussion we're avoiding is: what happens when a lifetime of work doesn't guarantee basic security in old age? And what does that say about the system we've built?

Jtsummers 2y ago
> I suspect this post got no traction because: It's been up for an hour and is still on the front page. Seems a bit early to declare "no traction".

lotsofpulp 2y ago

> Or perhaps they were on track to quit at 65 until the stock market took a dive. [and they liquidated all their assets at the bottom of a market against all mainstream advice]

Jtsummers 2y ago
This happened to several senior colleagues of mine circa 2008. They were overinvested in stocks (for their age and retirement timeline) and when the market took a nosedive several made rash decisions to sell rather than wait. While they may not have recovered within their desired timeframe, they would have been better off waiting and getting something back instead of selling near the bottom.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  It only took 6 years for SP500 to return to its peak. If they were planning for a retirement longer than 6 years, they would have gotten a ton more back. All you have to do is hold bonds or treasuries for the next few years worth of expenses, and then let the federal government take a few years to pump up the markets again. If that doesn’t happen, then you have bigger things to worry about than your 401k balance.

bilbo0s 2y ago

What's most interesting here is that the promoted solutions are untested. We won't know how well IRA/401k etc works until we get a couple of generations under our belt who use that system instead of pensions. So, unfortunately, I'm thinking the GenX'ers and the Millennials will be the involuntary guinea pigs as they age into retirement. If it doesn't work, there will be little we can do for those generations of retirees. I can't say whether or not individual funded retirement will work? But just back of the napkin sort of guesstimate at whether a lifetime of saving plus interest can net you 30 years of livable yearly interest or drawdowns (assuming social security) + the necessary medicare supplements/or health insurance? I don't know? It seems unlikely. And again, all that is under the rosy scenario where social security still exists. If social security is changed, the picture is even more bleak. I could be wrong, but I think people are going to need to acclimate themselves to working through much of retirement. How much will likely depend on how well you did saving. But I suspect a sizable majority of GenX and Millennials will have no choice in the matter. Watching the current retirees may make us sad, but these scenarios may be nothing compared to what's coming.

cogman10 2y ago
They are tested and the results have already been a disaster. People don't save for 401ks. And why would they? The fact is, when you are living paycheck to paycheck, retirement takes a backseat to rent. And even when they do save, we are currently looking at a market downturn. The last 5 years have been pretty rough in terms of the stock market with returns being much lower than you might count on. There is an option, it's fully funding social security by lifting the income cap. It's silly that you get a tax break on SS simply by making too much money. The biggest threats to the average person being able to retire is the government gutting, dismantling, and/or privatizing Medicaid, Medicare, and social security. With those gone, yeah grandma is going to have to work in the Foxconn factory to avoid eating catfood. It's not completely hopeless, but people really need to be informed on this. We are running headlong into this problem because neither party wants to raise taxes to fund these essential programs. This is a government problem to solve which is best solved by a government agency. It will be a disaster if private corporate leaches get involved, matching the current state of healthcare for anyone not disabled or younger than 65. For anyone that advocates UBI. That's what social security is, UBI (with an age restriction).

cytocync 2y ago

[dead]

alkonaut 2y ago

That was the biggest shock to me when visiting the US. Not seeeing tip choices 15,20,25 or bars with parking lots, it was seeing people clearly over 70 working jobs you rarely see anyone over 25 doing elsewhere. Even physical and/or poorly paying jobs (mailmen, cleaning, fast food).

brg 2y ago
You should have talked to them instead of assuming it was out of necessity. My parents retired in n social security ten years ago. Most of their friends are doing fine with savings and retirement, but they get bored and take a job at Walmart or Applebees. For the most part they enjoy it.
- eesmith 2y ago
  I friend of mine retired, but decided to do some consulting on the side. Even though he didn't need the money, he charged his normal rate, because he didn't want to depress the market. If the friends of your parents are willing to work for birdseed because they don't need the money, then it drives down the salary for those who need a job.
  - bestouff 2y ago
    "Didn't want to depress the market seems deeply un-American. They have that religious belief in the market magic hand that auto-regulates everything whatever you do. Me first, the market will solve it.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      He's British. English to be precise. So yes, un-American.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    I have done some fine work for people for free and some average work for people for expensive fees. People value the work by how much they paid for it.

Gothmog69 2y ago

20 an hour USD is what a dev makes in Canada. Crazy he couldn't save up enough in America to retire. Also crazy to read a sob story about the working poor in America and think... "must be nice"

intelVISA 2y ago
Wow, at that rate I'm surprised we don't see more Canadian startups. Solo SaaS could make 10x that, maybe they don't have many devs that actually ship value?
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  That's a junior dev rate, and a low one. A good job for a new grad would be USD 30/hour.
  - intelVISA 2y ago
    Right so at those rates why don't more Canadians gamble on running their own shop? Not like a CAN company selling worldwide, paying 1/3 salaries, only makes 1/3 the revenue? Unless corp taxes are 3x US?
    - willhslade 2y ago
      Market is 1/10th USA size.
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y ago
      Well, seniors in Vancouver can go for 160k/year (cad), still low for the cost of life, but better. 180 for lead is possible too. Over that I don't know.
badc0ffee 2y ago
I don't think that's quite true. When I was working for a large/stable/boring company in Calgary, the lowest paid green devs made more than C$56k/year.

tennisflyi 2y ago

Y’all balk at six figures salaries. Most will never see them