6 ms·

The Business of Phish (2013)

84 points by Tomte 2y ago

languagehacker 2y ago
I forgot about Priceonomics. Seems like the pivot from being just a blog to something more substantial left whatever this version it was in the wake.
anders16 2y ago
phish's annual nye run at msg is a must see!
baskinator 2y ago
The business of the Phish shakedown is an interesting read too. Ice cold fatties.. https://www.villagevoice.com/inside-the-nitrous-mafia-an-east-coast-hippie-crack-ring/ https://www.villagevoice.com/inside-the-nitrous-mafia-an-eas...
- keammo1 2y ago
  Thank you! I was actually hoping the original article would get into the Shakedown "economy" that surrounds Phish and other jam bands. Not just the nitrous part, but people selling grilled cheeses, burritos, single cans of Heady Topper and unlicensed merch. Like what kind of numbers they actually do, how do they secure their spot, how do they deal with competition, are they hopping on other bands' tours, how many are Phans vs just there to make a buck, what does their typical non-tour life look like etc
  - baskinator 2y ago
    It's wild how it pops up and disappears. Well not completely disappears because I went back the next day after a show and there was balloon debris and trash littered everywhere. I have a friend who has seen 100+ shows and he knows people whose identity and lifestyle is following the tour. They scrap to make ends meet and live on the road. A contingent of shakedown merchants fit that profile. Of course, some are there just to make money and don't see the shows. And some probably take turns running the booth while their clan is is at the show that night
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
gatnoodle 2y ago
They're way is the complete opposite of Tool, probably why Tool lands up taking decades to release albums.
PaulMcCartney 2y ago
[dead]
gnatman 2y ago
1 for 3, 2 for 5
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
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  [deleted]
- immibis 2y ago
  numbers go 0 1 2, 3 four 5, silly goose (I don't know what this is supposed to mean)
  - jeffdotdev 2y ago
    It's the price of the beers in the parking lot before the concert. (or at least used to be.)
- PaulMcCartney 2y ago
  [dead]
switz 2y ago
As someone who could reasonably be considered an expert in Phish, as well as someone who built their own indie business, I can confidently say no book, business, or entity influenced my business more than Phish. Phish is a business, but they are more accurately defined as a creative conduit for the four members to sustainably make music. Their goals were to work incredibly hard (both in front of an audience and away from them), grow sustainably, and perform live music. They, by and large, treat their fans right and focus on crafting incredible live experiences. Their interviews are gems for those pursuing creative work who are obsessed with process, intent, and improvement. Their business changed drastically in 2009, when they came back from an extended hiatus. The business side of things had burned them out and they pared down their internal organization to ~3-4 people and outsourced most of it to some close friends (an external management team), so they could focus on the music and their families. Whereas in their first 20 years they were far more fan-friendly and even anti-consumerism (they regularly covered up the advertisements in hockey arenas when playing there), the band's business has since become far more profitable and extracting, though not necessarily to an obscene extreme. The band members have mostly removed themselves from the business side and focus on the creative - a role that lets them keep rolling, but sometimes at the cost of fan-friendliness. It's worth noting that they are incredibly philanthropic, and have donated immense money to environmental, educational, and drug-treatment efforts. Overall they are a masterclass in running a well-balanced organization that is both a capitalistic business as well as a down-to-earth creative organization and I have no doubt each and every one of us could glean a lesson or two from the way they built their structure over years.
- thinkingtoilet 2y ago
  >the band's business has since become far more profitable and extracting, though not necessarily to an obscene extreme. At this point, it is getting extreme. With ticket sales and couch tour (live streams of concerts you can pay for) they are absurdly rich. Their ticket prices have climbed to a crazy amount and they allow all the fuckery that ticketmaster is hated for. Phish is my favorite band of all time and I have completely stopped seeing them live. I hope they enjoy their money.
  - 2y ago
MontgomeryPy 2y ago
Surprised no nod to their following the path that their heroes blazed (Grateful Dead)
- jeffwass 2y ago
  The Dead are explicitly mentioned : So while Phish undoubtedly has fewer fans than Madonna, the ticket revenue per fan is way higher because fans loyally attend multiple shows. Not since the Grateful Dead has a band built a following as loyal as Phish. And like the Grateful Dead, Phish merchandising is a big business as fans gobble up Phish t-shirts, baby-onesies, and hats.
  - MontgomeryPy 2y ago
    Yes saw that but no suggestion that perhaps consciously or subconsciously they followed the Dead's template since the article focuses on their business model
    - freejazz 2y ago
      The Dead's template started as going on tour, selling LSD until it ran out
block_dagger 2y ago
Cool to see my favorite band discussed here. One of my passion projects for the past 13 years has been running Phishin' [1], a free, legal, open source [2] website and API for discovering and streaming their music as recorded by the audience. [1] https://phish.in https://phish.in [2] https://github.com/jcraigk/phishin https://github.com/jcraigk/phishin
- john_cogs 2y ago
  Thanks for your service! I’ve spent many hours enjoying it.
- alexebird 2y ago
  Thanks for your work on Phish.in! I’ve used it a lot over the years. Not sure if you remember this, but I used to run phishtrackstats.com and you let me integrate my api with phish.in. That was a big deal for me at the time.
  - block_dagger 2y ago
    Yes! Good to hear from you :)
bloomingeek 2y ago
Sadly, I've never seen Phish in concert, but I have seen Trey Anastasio and his band at the Cain's Ballroom in Tulsa. It was mind blowing how perfect and complex the music was! My wife enjoyed the band immensely, even though she's not a fan of that genre. IMO, Phish and solo Trey are a kind of prog/jaze band, who jams out because the music flows in a long play type of way. (It's so good, where do you stop?)
- freejazz 2y ago
  Sadly? They play all the time and aren't likely to die anytime soon. Catch them this spring or summer. And yeah, calling them prog is pretty accurate.
john_cogs 2y ago
Seen Phish many times. Besides the band’s success in carving their own niche, I’m equally surprised by the intricacy of the economy that enables Phish and other traveling shows to be successful. There are many specialists required to make it happen. Roadies who travel with the artists. Arenas (with their often billionaire owners). Security and hospitality staff. Vendors in the arenas selling food, drinks, and merch. Vendors outside the shows selling bootleg merch, street food, alcohol, and other illicit goods in the parking lots. There’s a lot happening every night to make the whole thing as fun as it is.
standardly 2y ago
Phish is the greatest band of all time and if you haven't attended a show I sincerely feel you are missing out, regardless of what your musical taste is. If you play an instrument, or have ever played in a band, you'll definitely appreciate the show they put on.
- deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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qrush 2y ago
So, HN meetup at the Manchester shows this summer?
alexebird 2y ago
Good article. I’ve been seeing them since 2009 and their operation is fascinating. Everything is planned, structured, coordinated and optimized, so the music can be chaotic. I’ve seen them 80 times (which isn’t even that much in the community), and have had many moments where I thought I might be over it. Is all the expense and time worth it? A four night run (much less 13) is exhausting. I’ll never stop though. It’s as much about a familiar ritual as seeking new experiences. It is said that nobody hates Phish fans more than other Phish fans. When you fly halfway across the country just to stand next to drunk people talking all night (“chompers”), it’s hard to disagree. I think a key part of their shtick is random variable reward. Not every show will be a banger, but there are enough legendary moments that there can be a feeling of chasing great shows, songs and moments. Like Pokemon pretty much. As a musician I realized that it’s impossible to control whether a show will be great. Even Phish can’t fully control that, thus the random variable reward is incidental. Although, they say there’s no such thing as a bad Phish show.
rus20376 2y ago
> Phish doesn’t make money by selling music. They make money by selling live music Let’s be intellectually honest here, probably the majority of tickets are sold to people who are at best casual fans of the music but are seeking a temporary autonomous zone in which to consume drugs. That’s the real product. I make no moral judgment here about that, but any discussion of this band without any serious mention of the drug culture is inherently dishonest.

84 points by Tomte 2y ago

I forgot about Priceonomics. Seems like the pivot from being just a blog to something more substantial left whatever this version it was in the wake.

anders16 2y ago

phish's annual nye run at msg is a must see!

baskinator 2y ago

The business of the Phish shakedown is an interesting read too. Ice cold fatties.. https://www.villagevoice.com/inside-the-nitrous-mafia-an-east-coast-hippie-crack-ring/ https://www.villagevoice.com/inside-the-nitrous-mafia-an-eas...

keammo1 2y ago
Thank you! I was actually hoping the original article would get into the Shakedown "economy" that surrounds Phish and other jam bands. Not just the nitrous part, but people selling grilled cheeses, burritos, single cans of Heady Topper and unlicensed merch. Like what kind of numbers they actually do, how do they secure their spot, how do they deal with competition, are they hopping on other bands' tours, how many are Phans vs just there to make a buck, what does their typical non-tour life look like etc
- baskinator 2y ago
  It's wild how it pops up and disappears. Well not completely disappears because I went back the next day after a show and there was balloon debris and trash littered everywhere. I have a friend who has seen 100+ shows and he knows people whose identity and lifestyle is following the tour. They scrap to make ends meet and live on the road. A contingent of shakedown merchants fit that profile. Of course, some are there just to make money and don't see the shows. And some probably take turns running the booth while their clan is is at the show that night
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

gatnoodle 2y ago

They're way is the complete opposite of Tool, probably why Tool lands up taking decades to release albums.

PaulMcCartney 2y ago

[dead]

gnatman 2y ago

1 for 3, 2 for 5

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
immibis 2y ago
numbers go 0 1 2, 3 four 5, silly goose (I don't know what this is supposed to mean)
- jeffdotdev 2y ago
  It's the price of the beers in the parking lot before the concert. (or at least used to be.)
PaulMcCartney 2y ago
[dead]

switz 2y ago

As someone who could reasonably be considered an expert in Phish, as well as someone who built their own indie business, I can confidently say no book, business, or entity influenced my business more than Phish. Phish is a business, but they are more accurately defined as a creative conduit for the four members to sustainably make music. Their goals were to work incredibly hard (both in front of an audience and away from them), grow sustainably, and perform live music. They, by and large, treat their fans right and focus on crafting incredible live experiences. Their interviews are gems for those pursuing creative work who are obsessed with process, intent, and improvement. Their business changed drastically in 2009, when they came back from an extended hiatus. The business side of things had burned them out and they pared down their internal organization to ~3-4 people and outsourced most of it to some close friends (an external management team), so they could focus on the music and their families. Whereas in their first 20 years they were far more fan-friendly and even anti-consumerism (they regularly covered up the advertisements in hockey arenas when playing there), the band's business has since become far more profitable and extracting, though not necessarily to an obscene extreme. The band members have mostly removed themselves from the business side and focus on the creative - a role that lets them keep rolling, but sometimes at the cost of fan-friendliness. It's worth noting that they are incredibly philanthropic, and have donated immense money to environmental, educational, and drug-treatment efforts. Overall they are a masterclass in running a well-balanced organization that is both a capitalistic business as well as a down-to-earth creative organization and I have no doubt each and every one of us could glean a lesson or two from the way they built their structure over years.

thinkingtoilet 2y ago
>the band's business has since become far more profitable and extracting, though not necessarily to an obscene extreme. At this point, it is getting extreme. With ticket sales and couch tour (live streams of concerts you can pay for) they are absurdly rich. Their ticket prices have climbed to a crazy amount and they allow all the fuckery that ticketmaster is hated for. Phish is my favorite band of all time and I have completely stopped seeing them live. I hope they enjoy their money.
- 2y ago

MontgomeryPy 2y ago

Surprised no nod to their following the path that their heroes blazed (Grateful Dead)

jeffwass 2y ago
The Dead are explicitly mentioned : So while Phish undoubtedly has fewer fans than Madonna, the ticket revenue per fan is way higher because fans loyally attend multiple shows. Not since the Grateful Dead has a band built a following as loyal as Phish. And like the Grateful Dead, Phish merchandising is a big business as fans gobble up Phish t-shirts, baby-onesies, and hats.
- MontgomeryPy 2y ago
  Yes saw that but no suggestion that perhaps consciously or subconsciously they followed the Dead's template since the article focuses on their business model
  - freejazz 2y ago
    The Dead's template started as going on tour, selling LSD until it ran out

block_dagger 2y ago

Cool to see my favorite band discussed here. One of my passion projects for the past 13 years has been running Phishin' [1], a free, legal, open source [2] website and API for discovering and streaming their music as recorded by the audience. [1] https://phish.in https://phish.in [2] https://github.com/jcraigk/phishin https://github.com/jcraigk/phishin

john_cogs 2y ago
Thanks for your service! I’ve spent many hours enjoying it.
alexebird 2y ago
Thanks for your work on Phish.in! I’ve used it a lot over the years. Not sure if you remember this, but I used to run phishtrackstats.com and you let me integrate my api with phish.in. That was a big deal for me at the time.
- block_dagger 2y ago
  Yes! Good to hear from you :)

bloomingeek 2y ago

Sadly, I've never seen Phish in concert, but I have seen Trey Anastasio and his band at the Cain's Ballroom in Tulsa. It was mind blowing how perfect and complex the music was! My wife enjoyed the band immensely, even though she's not a fan of that genre. IMO, Phish and solo Trey are a kind of prog/jaze band, who jams out because the music flows in a long play type of way. (It's so good, where do you stop?)

freejazz 2y ago
Sadly? They play all the time and aren't likely to die anytime soon. Catch them this spring or summer. And yeah, calling them prog is pretty accurate.

john_cogs 2y ago

Seen Phish many times. Besides the band’s success in carving their own niche, I’m equally surprised by the intricacy of the economy that enables Phish and other traveling shows to be successful. There are many specialists required to make it happen. Roadies who travel with the artists. Arenas (with their often billionaire owners). Security and hospitality staff. Vendors in the arenas selling food, drinks, and merch. Vendors outside the shows selling bootleg merch, street food, alcohol, and other illicit goods in the parking lots. There’s a lot happening every night to make the whole thing as fun as it is.

standardly 2y ago

Phish is the greatest band of all time and if you haven't attended a show I sincerely feel you are missing out, regardless of what your musical taste is. If you play an instrument, or have ever played in a band, you'll definitely appreciate the show they put on.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

qrush 2y ago

So, HN meetup at the Manchester shows this summer?

alexebird 2y ago

Good article. I’ve been seeing them since 2009 and their operation is fascinating. Everything is planned, structured, coordinated and optimized, so the music can be chaotic. I’ve seen them 80 times (which isn’t even that much in the community), and have had many moments where I thought I might be over it. Is all the expense and time worth it? A four night run (much less 13) is exhausting. I’ll never stop though. It’s as much about a familiar ritual as seeking new experiences. It is said that nobody hates Phish fans more than other Phish fans. When you fly halfway across the country just to stand next to drunk people talking all night (“chompers”), it’s hard to disagree. I think a key part of their shtick is random variable reward. Not every show will be a banger, but there are enough legendary moments that there can be a feeling of chasing great shows, songs and moments. Like Pokemon pretty much. As a musician I realized that it’s impossible to control whether a show will be great. Even Phish can’t fully control that, thus the random variable reward is incidental. Although, they say there’s no such thing as a bad Phish show.

rus20376 2y ago

> Phish doesn’t make money by selling music. They make money by selling live music Let’s be intellectually honest here, probably the majority of tickets are sold to people who are at best casual fans of the music but are seeking a temporary autonomous zone in which to consume drugs. That’s the real product. I make no moral judgment here about that, but any discussion of this band without any serious mention of the drug culture is inherently dishonest.