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The article seems to end where it gets interesting. Greeks and Romans were associated with pigs, so the Jews decide that not eating pork should be a symbol of

The article seems to end where it gets interesting. Greeks and Romans were associated with pigs, so the Jews decide that not eating pork should be a symbol of national identity. But then it says people continued to eat pork in the area. Why? Islam naturally doesn't like pigs due to geography, but what about the Jews? How does it become pretty much the thing you remember every time you're out with your Jewish friends?

intellectronica 2y ago
Religion, and strict adherence to these laws by the general population, is a relatively late phenomenon. It only became as strict as it is now during the middle ages and more so in early modernity. Your Jewish friends are, to a large extent, a product of 18th-century Eastern European Jewish culture and Western / American homogenised understanding of religion.
- edgyquant 2y ago
  This is entirely incorrect
- paride5745 2y ago
  If this was the case, why Jewish practices from Eastern Europe and the Middle East/North Africa are so aligned? And even communities that are even further away like Ethiopia, Yemen, and India, are mostly following the same pattern? Modern Judaism is very much connected to the state of affairs of ancient Israel/Judah from 24 centuries ago.
  - intellectronica 2y ago
    They were not so aligned until the 20th-century when Jews from all communities mixed again. I am not disputing that Jewish practices today and for the last two millennia are connected to practices in Judea at the turn of the first millennium and to texts that had been written even earlier. What I'm saying is that strict and regulated adherence by large parts of the population came relatively late. That, as far as I can tell from the research, is not at all controversial.
- fortran77 2y ago
  What a racist comment. Jewish culture is not "european" culture.
  - intellectronica 2y ago
    How is it "racist"?! It's merely factual. Just before the holocaust, ~85% of Jews in the world were Ashkenazi Jews. The percentage among Jewish immigrants to America is even higher. That doesn't make the culture of Jews from other communities less valuable or worthy of appreciation, but it makes it less relevant for this particular sub-discussion.
lotharcable 2y ago
> But then it says people continued to eat pork in the area. Why? The Levant area was very multinational. This is one of the things people get confused about in the Bible. Just because somebody is referred to as "A Jew" didn't necessarily mean they were of Hebrew descent or practiced the religion. Especially during Roman times the region was just called Judah. People of the era used the term "jew" generically to refer to people from that region. It didn't mean those people were Hebrew or even particularly religious. Also the Hebrew people frequently drifted in and out of faith and frequently adopted the practices, religions, customs, and wives/husbands of other peoples. In fact this is a major theme of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. If not THE major theme. It follows a repeated cycle of the people falling out of faith, bad things start happening, they beg and plead for salvation, God redeems them only to have the cycle repeat in their children's children. So anybody who has read the Bible shouldn't be surprised when archaeologists discover pork bones or pagan idols among ancient settlements in the region. This is exactly what one would expect. > How does it become pretty much the thing you remember every time you're out with your Jewish friends? Because it is so conspicuous. Pork and pork products are used in a huge amount of foods and products. Even food that doesn't list it as a ingredient in restaurants frequently uses lard as part of its production. So it actually requires a lot of effort to avoid it and one can't help but noticing when friends need to have special convesations with the waiters, etc.
- paride5745 2y ago
  It is even more deep that this. Archeology tells us that common people of ancient Judea/Israel were more flexible in their practice than post-Roman orthodoxy implies. From Asherah statues to an entire Temple (Elephantine island on the Nile) working in parallel to the Jerusalem Temple. The matter of strict adherence as a National identity/religious practice became important following the Diaspora following the Rome-Jewish wars.
  - shermantanktop 2y ago
    When times are good, it’s everyone for themselves, and individuals can entertain various identities and alliances. But when times are tough, community is protective, and individuals have to pick a side. Sounds like modern politics.
whoopdedo 2y ago
> But then it says people continued to eat pork in the area. Why? Because it was cheaper. The article mentions how much easier it is to raise pigs than sheep or cattle. It also touches on the Isrealites being primarily sheep farmers and the Philistines raised pigs. Which is why I think the prohibition was a form of protectionism. It forces people to buy from Hebrew farms instead of the foreign pork.
sigzero 2y ago
Not eating pork came way before the Greeks and Romans.
- wahern 2y ago
  The Philistines settled circa 12-13th century BC. Leviticus in its current form dates to circa 6th century BC. And while the origins of the taboo (as well as Leviticus) goes back further than the 6th century, as the article suggests the taboo seems to enter the culture after the Philistines had established themselves.
leftofright 2y ago
Survivorship bias. Some Jews ate pigs some didn’t. The ones that did assimilated. The ones that didn’t are still around today.

intellectronica 2y ago

Religion, and strict adherence to these laws by the general population, is a relatively late phenomenon. It only became as strict as it is now during the middle ages and more so in early modernity. Your Jewish friends are, to a large extent, a product of 18th-century Eastern European Jewish culture and Western / American homogenised understanding of religion.

edgyquant 2y ago
This is entirely incorrect
paride5745 2y ago
If this was the case, why Jewish practices from Eastern Europe and the Middle East/North Africa are so aligned? And even communities that are even further away like Ethiopia, Yemen, and India, are mostly following the same pattern? Modern Judaism is very much connected to the state of affairs of ancient Israel/Judah from 24 centuries ago.
- intellectronica 2y ago
  They were not so aligned until the 20th-century when Jews from all communities mixed again. I am not disputing that Jewish practices today and for the last two millennia are connected to practices in Judea at the turn of the first millennium and to texts that had been written even earlier. What I'm saying is that strict and regulated adherence by large parts of the population came relatively late. That, as far as I can tell from the research, is not at all controversial.
fortran77 2y ago
What a racist comment. Jewish culture is not "european" culture.
- intellectronica 2y ago
  How is it "racist"?! It's merely factual. Just before the holocaust, ~85% of Jews in the world were Ashkenazi Jews. The percentage among Jewish immigrants to America is even higher. That doesn't make the culture of Jews from other communities less valuable or worthy of appreciation, but it makes it less relevant for this particular sub-discussion.

lotharcable 2y ago

> But then it says people continued to eat pork in the area. Why? The Levant area was very multinational. This is one of the things people get confused about in the Bible. Just because somebody is referred to as "A Jew" didn't necessarily mean they were of Hebrew descent or practiced the religion. Especially during Roman times the region was just called Judah. People of the era used the term "jew" generically to refer to people from that region. It didn't mean those people were Hebrew or even particularly religious. Also the Hebrew people frequently drifted in and out of faith and frequently adopted the practices, religions, customs, and wives/husbands of other peoples. In fact this is a major theme of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. If not THE major theme. It follows a repeated cycle of the people falling out of faith, bad things start happening, they beg and plead for salvation, God redeems them only to have the cycle repeat in their children's children. So anybody who has read the Bible shouldn't be surprised when archaeologists discover pork bones or pagan idols among ancient settlements in the region. This is exactly what one would expect. > How does it become pretty much the thing you remember every time you're out with your Jewish friends? Because it is so conspicuous. Pork and pork products are used in a huge amount of foods and products. Even food that doesn't list it as a ingredient in restaurants frequently uses lard as part of its production. So it actually requires a lot of effort to avoid it and one can't help but noticing when friends need to have special convesations with the waiters, etc.

paride5745 2y ago
It is even more deep that this. Archeology tells us that common people of ancient Judea/Israel were more flexible in their practice than post-Roman orthodoxy implies. From Asherah statues to an entire Temple (Elephantine island on the Nile) working in parallel to the Jerusalem Temple. The matter of strict adherence as a National identity/religious practice became important following the Diaspora following the Rome-Jewish wars.
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  When times are good, it’s everyone for themselves, and individuals can entertain various identities and alliances. But when times are tough, community is protective, and individuals have to pick a side. Sounds like modern politics.

whoopdedo 2y ago

> But then it says people continued to eat pork in the area. Why? Because it was cheaper. The article mentions how much easier it is to raise pigs than sheep or cattle. It also touches on the Isrealites being primarily sheep farmers and the Philistines raised pigs. Which is why I think the prohibition was a form of protectionism. It forces people to buy from Hebrew farms instead of the foreign pork.

sigzero 2y ago

Not eating pork came way before the Greeks and Romans.

wahern 2y ago
The Philistines settled circa 12-13th century BC. Leviticus in its current form dates to circa 6th century BC. And while the origins of the taboo (as well as Leviticus) goes back further than the 6th century, as the article suggests the taboo seems to enter the culture after the Philistines had established themselves.

leftofright 2y ago

Survivorship bias. Some Jews ate pigs some didn’t. The ones that did assimilated. The ones that didn’t are still around today.