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Tesla loses ground as Chinese EVs dominate global markets
- seper8 2y agoHey at least they got their license to run a taxi business in California today. GJ Musk! So close to Robotaxi completion (it will never happen).
- AlotOfReading 2y agoThey received a CPC permit, which is simply a prerequisite to some of the actual robotaxi permits. Still a long way to go.
- seper8 2y agoYeah I was being sarcastic.
- londons_explore 2y agoChina has everything needed for cheap and efficient manufacturing. The design skills, the infrastructure, the cheap labour, the network of factories, etc. The US does not. The only reason the US might win at car manufacturing will be if there are sufficient tariffs or other trade barriers. In a free market, China will win.
- soco 2y agoHow will US win with trade barriers? With them it can only secure the US market, and even this only provided the entire production chain is located in the US. Because you can forget about exporting goods weighted by trade tariffs - as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating. So it can win, if you redefine the word "win".
- gedy 2y ago> as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating I'm not defending our tariff strategy, but afaik this is actually the point being made that the US imports with low/no tariffs while US exports are tariffed in many countries.
- ZeroGravitas 2y agoI'd assume that's bullshit for "many countries" and here's a comment from the EU calling it specifically bullshit in regards to them: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_25_541 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_... > Doesn't the US have a point about an asymmetry in tariffs, such as the EU's 10% tariff on cars compared to the US's 2.5% tariff? > Tariff structures vary between economies, with some EU tariffs higher than those of the US and many others lower. Both the EU and the US have equally low tariffs overall. > While the EU applies a 10% Most Favored Nation (MFN) tariff on cars, it's important to note that the US imposes a 25% tariff on pickup trucks—the largest segment of the US auto market, accounting for about one-third of all vehicle sales. In fact, the best-selling vehicle in the US is a pickup truck, the Ford F-150. > The EU remains open to balanced negotiations that foster a level playing field for both sides.
- JKCalhoun 2y agoYeah, thinking about that. You better hope the people of the US feel comfortable dropping $50K with enough frequency for it to be sustainable.
- infecto 2y agoIt's not even that the labor is as cheap as it used to be but it's generally a very able and willing workforce with a labor structure where there are no qualms with automating parts of the process. The auto manufacturing race has already been lost in my opinion. Nobody is doing it as well or at the same scale as China.
- ecocentrik 2y agoThe US is not going to win at car manufacturing outside the US anymore and right now it's not even clear it will win inside the US or with our closest trading partners. Tariffs are not being wielded effectively to protect US car manufacturing in the US.
- daveguy 2y agoAgreed. Tarrifs and doge are clearly being wielded to diminish US standing in the world. See also: shutting down relatively inexpensive aid programs that feed hungry people all over the world. And shutting down pro-democracy broadcasting throughout the world. Our adversaries have never had a better opportunity to jump in as heroes. Or even just, not assholes. Destruction of soft power directly by the tool in charge. US influence around the world went poof in a matter of weeks. Xi and Putin couldn't have planned it better.
- enaaem 2y agoA businessman like Trump sees money as goal in of itself. Statesmen like Xi and Putin see money as a means to an end.
- tim333 2y agoTesla were doing pretty well at competing with the Chinese in China.
- ecocentrik 2y agoThey were competing and holding their own. I wouldn't say they were winning. The major advantage BYD had was as a battery manufacturer who had also vertically integrated into lithium mining. Tesla has tried to replicate their manufacturing and mining operations but is still lagging in the development of those facets of their business.
- tinyhouse 2y agoI don't know how if it's tariffs or something else, but the US has been preventing importing EVs from China for a long time. You cannot not notice all the Chinese EVs on the roads when traveling overseas. I always wondered why those cars don't make it to the US.
- bildung 2y agoIt's tariffs. The US has a 100% tariff on Chinese EV already since 2024.
- spamizbad 2y agoThe US auto industry is protected via tariffs. It would implode if those were lifted.
- mrguyorama 2y agoTo be fair, the US auto industry has been in various states of mid-implosion since the 80s, and has only barely had a few years here and there (mostly just ford really) of NOT imploding. Buying domestic has been a sucker's game in the US since at least Reagan. Occasionally a domestic vehicle might be cheap, but it hasn't been a "good deal" in my lifetime.
- w0m 2y agoTBF - China is anything but a free market.
- peppers-ghost 2y agoThere's no such thing as a free market
- lenerdenator 2y agoIn a completely free market, it's less clear. A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support.
- coldpie 2y ago> A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping I'd be interested to read more about this claim, if you have a link/source. Regardless, we desperately need to de-carbonize our transportation sector. If China is the only country willing to put the dollars in to actually do that, then they deserve to reap the benefits of the new energy economy they helped build. Economics of the cars themselves aside, any effort put in to minimizing the costs of climate change will pay for itself by the end of the century.
- Marsymars 2y agoThere are lots of sources around Chinese dumping of steel for the past decade. Hard to find a good authoritative summary though, because every country and domestic steel lobby is running their own response. But e.g. from the UK in 2017: https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/research-blog/702/fact-check-is-china-dumping-steel https://business.leeds.ac.uk/research-ceric/dir-record/resea...
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago>A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support. European and American car makers have also gotten enormous support from their governments, except in other forms, like for example VW not being bankrupted to hell by the German government during Diesel gate for example.
- myrmidon 2y agoDo you think that the NOx-affair consequences for VW were too little? What would have been appropriate in your opinion? Every government can be expected to help local industry where reasonable, because that is in many ways what the constituents/electorate actually wants/needs.
- yabatopia 2y agoYou forgot the total lack of enforcing even basic environmental regulations, the massive government subsidies (diect and indirect), Uyghur forced labor, etc. And China is anything but a free market. In a truly free market, most Chinese carmakers wouldn't even exist. They mostly exist because Western carmakers were forced to form China dominated joint-ventures, share technology and ownership in order to enter the Chinese market.
- Cerium 2y ago"forced"? Nothing but greed and a race to the bottom forced their hands.
- sMarsIntruder 2y agoI hope that Tesla will change its top management asap. Imagine a situation where you have a new 800V infrastructure already applied to cybertruck and decide to update the Model Y with just “minor” adjustments. Which means that both M3 and MY will get 800V/48V when? 2/3 years minimum. It recalls me a Nokia moment. Meanwhile China is running.
- MVissers 2y agoI mean, we all know who the driver is to launch 'cybertrucks' and 'robotaxis' instead of more affordable variations. Also, not sure what the whole 800v hype is about. I rent EVs for roadtrips and Tesla's are basically the fastest charging ones with current architecture, haven't had a need for 800v since at the cell level the charging speed is already maxed out. Re: the Y, even though they won't sell because some hand gestures and behaviors, they did almost every complaint people have about the old model Y.
- croes 2y agoThere are many people who complain about long charging times. And there exist countries outside Tesla‘s supercharger network.
- zelos 2y agoLooking at EVDatabase, it seems like the 800v cars charge quite a lot faster? The EV6 manages 205kW average compared to 124kW for the long range Model Y. From my experience, the EV6 hits those charging speeds very reliably.
- dzhiurgis 2y agoNow look at available chargers… It’s clearly better, but far from key factor. Efficiency usually dictates overall trip duration.
- kgermino 2y agoEverything I've seen is that Hyundai/Kia's charge noticeably (though not massively) faster than Tesla's. I've never DCFC a Tesla to compare but my Ioniq is usually under 20 mins in practice
- criddell 2y agoOm Malik recently wrote what I though was a pretty insightful piece on what's going on in EVs and China: https://crazystupidtech.com/archive/chinas-ev-boom-is-bad-for-ustech/ https://crazystupidtech.com/archive/chinas-ev-boom-is-bad-fo...
- jillesvangurp 2y agoRegardless of what you think of Elon Musk, the simple fact is that Tesla no longer has the market to themselves. Even in the US where they've enjoyed a home advantage (and import tariffs) that's becoming true. It's not just the Chinese. There is a lot of competition. Korean manufacturers are very successful. In Europe, Stellantis has flooded the market with cars in price segments ranging from ~22K euros and up. And VW just announced a 20K ID.1. The cheapest Tesla in Europe is 44K or so. So, there's a rather large segment of EVs priced a lot cheaper than anything Tesla has on sale that is of course selling pretty well. And you see the same in the luxury segment where there are a lot of EVs on sale that are more expensive than what Tesla has to offer. And let's be realistic, the model S plaid is nice. But it's nothing special in terms of luxury compared to some of the more expensive models from other manufacturers. So the EV market is a lot larger than Tesla's corner of it. Which is basically the 44K - ~100K segment. And that segment is very crowded now as well. And it's no longer a given that Tesla is the best value deal at the prices they are selling. Even if you ignore the Elon Musk negative effect on the brand. Tesla could lower prices, announce cheaper models, etc. of course. But the fact is that the EV market is simply becoming the car market. In a few years, most new cars will be EVs with a sprinkle of hybrids for the range nervous and dwindling number of ICE cars where they are still allowed. So, the EV market is becoming a low margin, high volume, commodity market. There's nothing Tesla can do to change that. From 2026 and on-wards, every price segment will have EV options. Cost won't be an excuse anymore. Autonomous seems to be the wild card here. It will be a while for other manufacturers to build that themselves. Though some of the Chinese manufacturers are getting pretty good at that. This is a divisive topic of course. But it seems like a bet that could pay off if they get it to work. I have my doubts that they will have that market to themselves for very long though. Same with robotics. Or grid storage. Or electric trucks. Or solar roofs. Tesla is doing cool stuff for these things but they are hardly the only ones.
- rapsey 2y ago> So the EV market is a lot larger than Tesla's corner of it. Which is basically the 44K - ~100K segment. And that segment is very crowded now as well. Sure but Tesla competes very well in that market. Ioniq 5 for instance is in their price range, which by all accounts is an amazing car, but there are hardly any of them on the road. Whereas Model Y is literally one of the best selling cars in the world.
- lenerdenator 2y agoTo be fair, that tends to happen when a country's government decides that, come hell or high water, they're going to control a market. Musk going more insane doesn't help.
- IshKebab 2y agoYep I've been thinking BYD is just some Chinese brand that's only in China, but I saw one on the road in the UK recently and looked it up and they actually have something like 80 showrooms in the UK already. Way more than Tesla. Maybe making a dumb triangular truck that nobody wanted wasn't such a good idea after all. I imagine the BYD cars have such mod cons as rain sensors that work and indicator stalks too.
- silverquiet 2y agoI saw one in the US a few weeks ago that had a Mexican license plate. Pretty interesting because I'm aware of the brand but had not seen one in person.
- xrd 2y agoHmm. Does this mean they are street legal? I'm baffled by the multiple levels of irony if you could go into Mexico and buy an EV that you can then use in the US. That would make even Elon's head twist off.
- blovescoffee 2y agoOf course they’re street legal? You just can’t buy them in the US. They’re all over Mexico and they’re great.
- swarnie 2y agoWhy "Of course" ? If they aren't sold in the US why the automatic assumption that they conform to US automotive legislation?
- pjc50 2y agoYeah, I was wondering about that. Someone in the UK had a Cybertruck confiscated by the police because they're not approved here. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0lldd30xlo https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz0lldd30xlo
- enaaem 2y agoThis was always going to happen. It was a matter of time for competition to come. Tesla having tech company valuation is ridiculous, since they have none of the economic advantages typical of tech companies: easy scaling, network effect and user lock-in.
- cess11 2y agoThey also didn't have the knack for handling compliance, quality assurance and sophisticated supply logistics that the established car industry already has and would be necessary in the long term.
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoTo be fair they could probably have developed all that if they didn't have the distractions coming from the top.
- enaaem 2y agoYeah moving fast and breaking things does not work for car companies. In a software company if some programmers fix a bug, they (generally speaking) fix it for all users. For cars, you have to recall and manually fix all cars individually.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoA recall does not necessarily mean bringing vehicles into a shop. You can push OTA updates as a form of recall. You can decide for yourself whether that's a good idea though.
- oulipo 2y agoTesla cars are the shittiest possible cars
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- shadowtree 2y agoAt least Tesla is competitive. European carmakers? The core of German industry? Stellantis? Anyone? Same for the Koreans and Japanese. Nothing. I get the en vogue Tesla hate, Wrestling keyfabe is fun. China going after the "industry of industries" (Drucker, 1946) is quite something though.
- iammjm 2y agohating fascists and bullies never went out of style and I hope it never will
- shadowtree 2y agoI have Jewish friends here in the US that refuse to ever buy any German car. Volkswagen was founded by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront in 1937, the organized labor organization of the NSDAP. Literal Nazis. Don't google any other car makers.
- tim333 2y agoThat happened a while ago though. I figure focus on people doing bad stuff in the present. All countries did bad stuff in the past if you go back far enough.
- FirmwareBurner 2y agoNothing?! Koreans are ahead of the Europeans and maybe Japanese too in the EV game.
- doener 2y agoSame energy: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-12-27/in-2011-tesla-ceo-musk-mocked-chinese-competitor-byd-video https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-12-27/in-2011-tes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qycUOENFIBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qycUOENFIBs
- swarnie 2y agoExcellent news, not just because im banking my early retirement on NIO and BYD.
- piokoch 2y agoHardly a surprise, the market is growing rapidly, so nothing strange that the first player is no longer the only player. Nevertheless it was Tesla that proved viability of EVs and has courage to create totally new market segment. We've seen this in the IT several times, Commodore, Atari, IBM (as a hardware producer, not consulting company as it is now) had their time coming up with a No 1. product and then others came.
- maxglute 2y agoIf only US had multiple tesla tier EV manufacturers. Hedging globla US EV reputation on one company and one man is ridiculous situation to be in.
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- 1970-01-01 2y agoTesla could complete with BYD if they weren't slipping into a global political crisis while simultaneously manufacturing vehicles that remain unaffordable to the majority of buyers. Pulling a $19k Model 3 (delivered) out of the air is the only solution I can see. Musk will be forced to step aside if the sales continue to slip into Q3. They certainly will lose money on each delivery, but they will survive until the robocar tier is ready.
- Epskampie 2y agoThe robocar is bunk.
- mstaoru 2y agoChina is good at producing things (thanks to the infrastructure and cheap labor, for now), but is pretty bad at consistent service and general customer friendliness. We can also be sure that their cars are not made to any stringent standards, "chabuduo" attitude (negligence + cost cutting) is very much alive. I'm waiting with interest for the first cutoff "these cars should start failing about now" date to see how Chinese brands will handle repairs, parts, and general service. My bet is, besides most of the today's brands will even disappear by that time (since it was a subsidy grab to begin with), it will not be a great experience for the owners.
- lawn 2y agoTesla is also infamous for bad customer service and poor quality control though. Impressive as the rise of Tesla and the Chinese cars are, this is a strong point for why more traditional car makers may catch up in the future.
- singularity2001 2y agoCan you still disable the surveillance chip by pulling a fuse?
- jhp123 2y agoThe US has insulated the economic decision makers from consequences in the same way as centrally-planned economies like the USSR. We're seeing the same poor performance now. For example, the tech sector spend the 2010s chasing dumb ideas like metaverse/vr, crypto, voice assistants, and so on. But it didn't lead to any shakeup or consequences for the people in charge. The same firms, investors, and executives were in power in 2020 after a decade of stagnation and failure. They are insulated from any upstart competition by strong monopolization and increasingly, capture of the state itself.