4 ms·

To add: when apple switched to lightning they made a deal with hardware makers that they would support this for 10 years in order not to make all their hardware

To add: when apple switched to lightning they made a deal with hardware makers that they would support this for 10 years in order not to make all their hardware obsolete again. They did eventually change it after exactly 10 years.

bigyabai 2y ago
Not because their software would inherently break by switching to a different USB connector, or even by using a converter dongle. Apple signed this agreement because Lightning had a hardcoded DRM protocol baked into it to force third-parties to pay licensing fees. Of course they demanded a 10 year support window, it was a licensing ruse to make manufacturers pay a price premium to use the USB featureset. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program
- rahkiin 2y ago
  Not everything has to be a ‘i win, you lose’. It can be a strategy and architecture where multiple parties get something out of it. In different ways.
  - bigyabai 2y ago
    Sure, FireWire is an example of Apple using innovation to actually innovate. Lightning is an example of Apple using DRM to paywall an ordinary and freely availible USB 2.0 featureset.
    - majormajor 2y ago
      Firewire was a speed/feature innovation. Lighting was a port innovation. Pay to play in either case. Other options available to Apple instead of Lightning: * stick with the iPod connector for longer * switch to micro-USB * never invent the iPod connector in favor of staying with Firewire or going to mini-USB and then switch to micro-USB or something else later anyway None of these are better. I'm EXTREMELY glad they didn't switch to micro-USB. I had no shortage of mini-USB and then micro-USB devices and the micro-USB ports/cables are pretty much the worst I've ever dealt with.
      - josephg 2y ago
        Yeah. Also as I understand it, Apple is part of the USB committee and they were actively involved in the development of USB-C. Their experience developing the lightning connector actively led to usb-c being reversible. If not for the lightning connector, we wouldn't have usb-c as we know it today. Its also a stretch to claim apple doesn't like usb-c given how hard they've been pushing it on their laptops. In 2016, they started shipping laptops that only had usb-c ports - which worked around the chicken-and-egg problem we would have had otherwise. Dongle-gate was a real thing that annoyed a lot of people. But my desk is covered in usb-c peripherals - and that might not have happened if not for apple's "brave" choice.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        Someone 2y ago
        The same thing happened with the original USB. Windows machines, even laptops, shipped with serial and even parallel ports for years after the first iMacs went all in on it. That gave the market for USB devices an enormous boost. Without that, USB might have died.
      - FateOfNations 2y ago
        People have really bad memories of Mini- and Micro-USB, or aren't old enough to have experienced that era. Those things were fragile. At that point in time, it made all the technical and business sense in the world to replace their existing proprietary connector with a new, improved proprietary connector. The MFi program was a thing before Lightning, it's still a thing today, and has nothing to do with the specific connector.
    - SllX 2y ago
      The open alternative to 30-pin when Lightning was introduced was micro-USB and micro-USB is ass, but not switching away from 30-pin wasn’t an option for the phone they wanted to build at the time, that being the iPhone 5. All in all, Lightning was a net benefit that overstayed its welcome by a few years. Even once USB-C was introduced a few years later, it took a few more years than that to become as pervasive as it did.
      - musicale 2y ago
        Overstaying its welcome was intentional to avoid burning peripheral developers who had been promised 10 years of compatibility after Lightning replaced the 30-pin dock connector, which was used from 2003-2012. As noted in other comments, Apple was part of the USB working group, contributed to USB-C, and introduced USB-C/Thunderbolt-only laptops in 2016. There was backlash against this so they have since backtracked and reintroduced MagSafe and HDMI ports. Personally I would have preferred more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports.
        SllX 2y ago
        No I get that and I know the history too; but that doesn’t mean it didn’t overstay its welcome as far as users are concerned. Speaking as someone that personally was never got hung up over the shape of the charge cable and certainly not for the flimsy e-waste arguments that were put forth: just in terms of transfer rate (at least on the higher end models) and device compatibility, USB-C has been an upgrade that users could have been enjoying 3 to 5 years earlier when USB-C was a bit more widespread.
    - op00to 2y ago
      I never paid more for a lightning cable than I did for any other usb cable. Why would I care?
      - seanp2k2 2y ago
        I haven't paid for all that many lightning cables period, since they tended to be included with most devices that needed them, and aside from some strain reliefs that I've added myself in the form of heat shrink, they've been largely reliable too.
        TylerE 2y ago
        The issue I have with Lightning is that over time they tend to develop side to side wobble, to the point the connection becomes unreliable.
        Aaargh20318 2y ago
        This was usually due to lint clogging up the port on the device. You could easily remove it with a toothpick and then everything was back in working order. Took just a few seconds at most.
        rahkiin 2y ago
        Sadly such remedy is not possible with USB-C due to the thin piece inside. :(
        glenneroo 2y ago
        Try a paperclip or bobby-pin. Had to do that recently due to my cable not charging my phone reliably.
        TylerE 2y ago
        Nope, it’s not that. I’ve seen this behavior with a worn cable and a brand new device.
  - seec 2y ago
    The 3rd parties are not getting anything out of it. You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB. I mean the other side of connection was USB so it was a necessity anyway. If at least they upgraded the speed over the years, but nope stuck at USB 2. For a hardware project I looked briefly at the MFi terms and they just don't make any sense. This is why any good lightning cable was always more expensive (at least before you get some from China with contraband auth chips) Lightning is a major cash crab from Apple and revealed their actual playbook. Microsoft passed as a very bad players in the 90's but Apple is even worse. The only people not accepting that are deranged fans.
    - golergka 2y ago
      > You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB. Tech stack has the customers. You pay for access to customers.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        This is a relative comparison versus USB. If it was USB, it would have the same customers behind it (plus more).
      - seec 2y ago
        Best interpretation of that is rent-seeking. Not strictly illegal, but prone to regulation at the very least. Another way to put it is racketeering. I guess that Apple has been toying with the line for so long that people don't even understand where their interests lies...
    - IncreasePosts 2y ago
      You could turn lightning connectors upside down and plug them in before you could do that with USB
    - vr46 2y ago
      USB-C is a car crash of an implementation landscape, just because the interface is a single design, doesn't mean that you can rely on it. It is better than it was, but we've had several instances of issues with the USB-C, including my own personal favourite of my Nintendo Switch charging socket burning out because I used a non-Nintendo charger - an Apple one, completely compliant and as good as they get - to charge the Switch. A £50 repair. Some USB-C cables aren't data compliant. They just send power. There's all kinds of foibles with USB-C that have taken years to work on and this just isn't clear to tech folks, let alone non-tech consumers. The Lightning port has never done this to me, the device just charges and that's it. It transfers files and that's it.

bigyabai 2y ago

Not because their software would inherently break by switching to a different USB connector, or even by using a converter dongle. Apple signed this agreement because Lightning had a hardcoded DRM protocol baked into it to force third-parties to pay licensing fees. Of course they demanded a 10 year support window, it was a licensing ruse to make manufacturers pay a price premium to use the USB featureset. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program

rahkiin 2y ago
Not everything has to be a ‘i win, you lose’. It can be a strategy and architecture where multiple parties get something out of it. In different ways.
- bigyabai 2y ago
  Sure, FireWire is an example of Apple using innovation to actually innovate. Lightning is an example of Apple using DRM to paywall an ordinary and freely availible USB 2.0 featureset.
  - majormajor 2y ago
    Firewire was a speed/feature innovation. Lighting was a port innovation. Pay to play in either case. Other options available to Apple instead of Lightning: * stick with the iPod connector for longer * switch to micro-USB * never invent the iPod connector in favor of staying with Firewire or going to mini-USB and then switch to micro-USB or something else later anyway None of these are better. I'm EXTREMELY glad they didn't switch to micro-USB. I had no shortage of mini-USB and then micro-USB devices and the micro-USB ports/cables are pretty much the worst I've ever dealt with.
    - josephg 2y ago
      Yeah. Also as I understand it, Apple is part of the USB committee and they were actively involved in the development of USB-C. Their experience developing the lightning connector actively led to usb-c being reversible. If not for the lightning connector, we wouldn't have usb-c as we know it today. Its also a stretch to claim apple doesn't like usb-c given how hard they've been pushing it on their laptops. In 2016, they started shipping laptops that only had usb-c ports - which worked around the chicken-and-egg problem we would have had otherwise. Dongle-gate was a real thing that annoyed a lot of people. But my desk is covered in usb-c peripherals - and that might not have happened if not for apple's "brave" choice.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - Someone 2y ago
        The same thing happened with the original USB. Windows machines, even laptops, shipped with serial and even parallel ports for years after the first iMacs went all in on it. That gave the market for USB devices an enormous boost. Without that, USB might have died.
    - FateOfNations 2y ago
      People have really bad memories of Mini- and Micro-USB, or aren't old enough to have experienced that era. Those things were fragile. At that point in time, it made all the technical and business sense in the world to replace their existing proprietary connector with a new, improved proprietary connector. The MFi program was a thing before Lightning, it's still a thing today, and has nothing to do with the specific connector.
  - SllX 2y ago
    The open alternative to 30-pin when Lightning was introduced was micro-USB and micro-USB is ass, but not switching away from 30-pin wasn’t an option for the phone they wanted to build at the time, that being the iPhone 5. All in all, Lightning was a net benefit that overstayed its welcome by a few years. Even once USB-C was introduced a few years later, it took a few more years than that to become as pervasive as it did.
    - musicale 2y ago
      Overstaying its welcome was intentional to avoid burning peripheral developers who had been promised 10 years of compatibility after Lightning replaced the 30-pin dock connector, which was used from 2003-2012. As noted in other comments, Apple was part of the USB working group, contributed to USB-C, and introduced USB-C/Thunderbolt-only laptops in 2016. There was backlash against this so they have since backtracked and reintroduced MagSafe and HDMI ports. Personally I would have preferred more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports.
      - SllX 2y ago
        No I get that and I know the history too; but that doesn’t mean it didn’t overstay its welcome as far as users are concerned. Speaking as someone that personally was never got hung up over the shape of the charge cable and certainly not for the flimsy e-waste arguments that were put forth: just in terms of transfer rate (at least on the higher end models) and device compatibility, USB-C has been an upgrade that users could have been enjoying 3 to 5 years earlier when USB-C was a bit more widespread.
  - op00to 2y ago
    I never paid more for a lightning cable than I did for any other usb cable. Why would I care?
    - seanp2k2 2y ago
      I haven't paid for all that many lightning cables period, since they tended to be included with most devices that needed them, and aside from some strain reliefs that I've added myself in the form of heat shrink, they've been largely reliable too.
      - TylerE 2y ago
        The issue I have with Lightning is that over time they tend to develop side to side wobble, to the point the connection becomes unreliable.
        Aaargh20318 2y ago
        This was usually due to lint clogging up the port on the device. You could easily remove it with a toothpick and then everything was back in working order. Took just a few seconds at most.
        rahkiin 2y ago
        Sadly such remedy is not possible with USB-C due to the thin piece inside. :(
        glenneroo 2y ago
        Try a paperclip or bobby-pin. Had to do that recently due to my cable not charging my phone reliably.
        TylerE 2y ago
        Nope, it’s not that. I’ve seen this behavior with a worn cable and a brand new device.
- seec 2y ago
  The 3rd parties are not getting anything out of it. You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB. I mean the other side of connection was USB so it was a necessity anyway. If at least they upgraded the speed over the years, but nope stuck at USB 2. For a hardware project I looked briefly at the MFi terms and they just don't make any sense. This is why any good lightning cable was always more expensive (at least before you get some from China with contraband auth chips) Lightning is a major cash crab from Apple and revealed their actual playbook. Microsoft passed as a very bad players in the 90's but Apple is even worse. The only people not accepting that are deranged fans.
  - golergka 2y ago
    > You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB. Tech stack has the customers. You pay for access to customers.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      This is a relative comparison versus USB. If it was USB, it would have the same customers behind it (plus more).
    - seec 2y ago
      Best interpretation of that is rent-seeking. Not strictly illegal, but prone to regulation at the very least. Another way to put it is racketeering. I guess that Apple has been toying with the line for so long that people don't even understand where their interests lies...
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    You could turn lightning connectors upside down and plug them in before you could do that with USB
  - vr46 2y ago
    USB-C is a car crash of an implementation landscape, just because the interface is a single design, doesn't mean that you can rely on it. It is better than it was, but we've had several instances of issues with the USB-C, including my own personal favourite of my Nintendo Switch charging socket burning out because I used a non-Nintendo charger - an Apple one, completely compliant and as good as they get - to charge the Switch. A £50 repair. Some USB-C cables aren't data compliant. They just send power. There's all kinds of foibles with USB-C that have taken years to work on and this just isn't clear to tech folks, let alone non-tech consumers. The Lightning port has never done this to me, the device just charges and that's it. It transfers files and that's it.