4 ms·

It's honestly amazing how Apple managed to dodge anti-trust in the United States. The fact you cannot build a competing watch is unacceptable and the idea that

It's honestly amazing how Apple managed to dodge anti-trust in the United States. The fact you cannot build a competing watch is unacceptable and the idea that "well go build one for Android" is refusing to acknowledge that Apple is its own market in and of itself. Throw in the fact that even getting an app that isn't a game into the App store is not trivial, especially if it dares include some form of payment processing outside of the Apple-verse. The Floatplane Saga, where Linus Tech Tips didn't want to use Apple payment processor because they would have to charge 30% more is another example. It took months and dozens of app resubmissions, only to have to use their massive YouTuber influence to get into contact with someone at Apple should be proof enough that the App Store has gone too far.

jjtheblunt 2y ago
I think you’re overlooking Garmin who has a healthy business in smart watches and they’re compatible with Apple devices. Edit : more up to date and useful comments thankfully below
- james_pm 2y ago
  Long time Garmin watch user here and Garmins are also HORRIBLY crippled on iOS. Can I respond to a text message? No. I can clear the notification, but that is it. Apple Watch has far greater abilities than any other smart watch. That is the issue.
- Zagitta 2y ago
  As someone who has a garmin watch and switched from android to iOS I can tell you it's exactly as crippled as the article spells out. So if anything garmin has a healthy smartwatch business in spite of apple trying their hardest to choke competition.
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  The limitations in the blog post apply for Garmin just as much as Pebble.
- kelnos 2y ago
  My wife (iPhone user) has a Garmin watch that a friend of ours (Android user) recommended. The friend's experience is much much better, with many more features that work. Apple is definitely intentionally crippling the third-party smartwatch experience.
roamerz 2y ago
With as much functionality as there is on an Apple Watch I can see how that would be huge endeavor to accomplish while maintaining the tight security and privacy model.
- eddieroger 2y ago
  I think the devil is in the details of how iOS and watchOS interact. Instead of sending and receiving texts from iOS, watchOS is running messages and only sharing data. I imagine this pattern works a large amount of the time in Apple's benefit. They make a notification API available for anyone to use, they just choose not to do it. They also make it so the watch can use the phone's data, and this they do use, but also it can use WiFi or Cellular on its own.
  - roamerz 2y ago
    100% agree with those statements. It would be nice to have a more robust API and this more options but unless forced to I don’t see Apple doing that and honestly rightly so.
jimt1234 2y ago
> It's honestly amazing how Apple managed to dodge anti-trust in the United States. What's amazing to me is how much things have changed since the Microsoft antitrust saga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  MS had a much larger market share than Apple does in any product category. They were something like 95% or more of the PC OS market. Apple has, in the US, around 50% of the smartphone market and around 15% of the PC market. MS also did a lot to curtail competition that Apple hasn't even come close to. Like how they crippled BeOS by threatening OEMs with higher Windows licensing costs (as a low-margin business this would have pushed any OEM prices too high to remain competitive).
parsimo2010 2y ago
Obviously this is going to be up for debate, but in your comment you acknowledge that "go build one for Android" is an option. This is an indication that your complaint is not in Apple's behavior, but your regret that the competition sucks and it's not Apple's fault. Apple is not a market on their own from the perspective of smart phones and watches, every person making a purchasing decision has options (This is different from an app developer's perspective. See the last line for the explanation of why that's different). It's not like Apple started off letting third party watches work well and then suddenly locked them out (but you could argue from the article that they started off with minor handicaps and have increased the level of handicap over the years). Most people choose to buy iPhones knowing that only certain watch options work. It's not like anyone is suing Ford or Dodge for only making accessories that work on their own cars and trucks. It's not like anyone can legitimately complain that Ford is anticompetitive because they aren't making themselves compatible with Dodge oil filters. If Apple did something anticompetitive to keep Android options from being good, then you probably have a winnable legal case. But it seems like Google, Samsung, and the other Android players are losing on their own merits. Apple is its own market from the perspective of app developers. The app developers can only get to iPhone users through the Apple App Store, so restricting access and charging high fees is anti-trust.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > It's not like anyone is suing Ford or Dodge for only making accessories that work on their own cars and trucks. It's not like anyone can legitimately complain that Ford is anticompetitive because they aren't making themselves compatible with Dodge oil filters. You're conflating two different things here. One is, are their oil filters compatible? That isn't a problem; they can be incompatible. They're often incompatible even with other vehicles from the same manufacturer. Larger engines need larger oil filters etc. The other is, does the company prohibit compatibility? If a new company wants to make engines but not oil filters, so they make a car engine compatible with existing Ford oil filters, or someone wants to make oil filters for Fords even though they're not Ford, does Ford do anything to inhibit this? In general they do not, and if they did, that very much should be an antitrust violation.
hyperbovine 2y ago
I don't see how you can be a monopoly with <30% market share.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  Apple has majority share in the US.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  You're conflating two different markets. Apple has less than 100% market share for phones. Apps and phone accessories are not phones, they're separate products made by separate entities. If Apple phones and Android phones were compatible then the apps would be addressing the same market. For example, phones from Samsung and phones from Xiaomi both run the same apps, so they're in the same market. However, phones from Apple and phones from Samsung do not run the same apps. They're different markets. And Apple has a monopoly on the former.
- jobs_throwaway 2y ago
  You don't see how you can be a monopoly with nearly 2/3 market share and 2.5x market size of your next-largest competitor? You must not be very imaginative
  - hyperbovine 2y ago
    Some other companies with similar market share: - Coca Cola - DoorDash - Adobe - Tesla - Canon digital cameras I guess we should break all them up too.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      If they abuse their market dominance, we absolutely should.
      - hyperbovine 2y ago
        Please precisely quantify how none of these companies do that except Apple.
jimbokun 2y ago
> refusing to acknowledge that Apple is its own market in and of itself. Is the market iOS devices or smart phones? I think the definition of "market" is usually one of the most difficult questions to answer in anti-trust litigation.

jjtheblunt 2y ago

I think you’re overlooking Garmin who has a healthy business in smart watches and they’re compatible with Apple devices. Edit : more up to date and useful comments thankfully below

james_pm 2y ago
Long time Garmin watch user here and Garmins are also HORRIBLY crippled on iOS. Can I respond to a text message? No. I can clear the notification, but that is it. Apple Watch has far greater abilities than any other smart watch. That is the issue.
Zagitta 2y ago
As someone who has a garmin watch and switched from android to iOS I can tell you it's exactly as crippled as the article spells out. So if anything garmin has a healthy smartwatch business in spite of apple trying their hardest to choke competition.
do_not_redeem 2y ago
The limitations in the blog post apply for Garmin just as much as Pebble.
kelnos 2y ago
My wife (iPhone user) has a Garmin watch that a friend of ours (Android user) recommended. The friend's experience is much much better, with many more features that work. Apple is definitely intentionally crippling the third-party smartwatch experience.

roamerz 2y ago

With as much functionality as there is on an Apple Watch I can see how that would be huge endeavor to accomplish while maintaining the tight security and privacy model.

eddieroger 2y ago
I think the devil is in the details of how iOS and watchOS interact. Instead of sending and receiving texts from iOS, watchOS is running messages and only sharing data. I imagine this pattern works a large amount of the time in Apple's benefit. They make a notification API available for anyone to use, they just choose not to do it. They also make it so the watch can use the phone's data, and this they do use, but also it can use WiFi or Cellular on its own.
- roamerz 2y ago
  100% agree with those statements. It would be nice to have a more robust API and this more options but unless forced to I don’t see Apple doing that and honestly rightly so.

jimt1234 2y ago

> It's honestly amazing how Apple managed to dodge anti-trust in the United States. What's amazing to me is how much things have changed since the Microsoft antitrust saga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

Jtsummers 2y ago
MS had a much larger market share than Apple does in any product category. They were something like 95% or more of the PC OS market. Apple has, in the US, around 50% of the smartphone market and around 15% of the PC market. MS also did a lot to curtail competition that Apple hasn't even come close to. Like how they crippled BeOS by threatening OEMs with higher Windows licensing costs (as a low-margin business this would have pushed any OEM prices too high to remain competitive).

parsimo2010 2y ago

Obviously this is going to be up for debate, but in your comment you acknowledge that "go build one for Android" is an option. This is an indication that your complaint is not in Apple's behavior, but your regret that the competition sucks and it's not Apple's fault. Apple is not a market on their own from the perspective of smart phones and watches, every person making a purchasing decision has options (This is different from an app developer's perspective. See the last line for the explanation of why that's different). It's not like Apple started off letting third party watches work well and then suddenly locked them out (but you could argue from the article that they started off with minor handicaps and have increased the level of handicap over the years). Most people choose to buy iPhones knowing that only certain watch options work. It's not like anyone is suing Ford or Dodge for only making accessories that work on their own cars and trucks. It's not like anyone can legitimately complain that Ford is anticompetitive because they aren't making themselves compatible with Dodge oil filters. If Apple did something anticompetitive to keep Android options from being good, then you probably have a winnable legal case. But it seems like Google, Samsung, and the other Android players are losing on their own merits. Apple is its own market from the perspective of app developers. The app developers can only get to iPhone users through the Apple App Store, so restricting access and charging high fees is anti-trust.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> It's not like anyone is suing Ford or Dodge for only making accessories that work on their own cars and trucks. It's not like anyone can legitimately complain that Ford is anticompetitive because they aren't making themselves compatible with Dodge oil filters. You're conflating two different things here. One is, are their oil filters compatible? That isn't a problem; they can be incompatible. They're often incompatible even with other vehicles from the same manufacturer. Larger engines need larger oil filters etc. The other is, does the company prohibit compatibility? If a new company wants to make engines but not oil filters, so they make a car engine compatible with existing Ford oil filters, or someone wants to make oil filters for Fords even though they're not Ford, does Ford do anything to inhibit this? In general they do not, and if they did, that very much should be an antitrust violation.

hyperbovine 2y ago

I don't see how you can be a monopoly with <30% market share.

dismalaf 2y ago
Apple has majority share in the US.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
You're conflating two different markets. Apple has less than 100% market share for phones. Apps and phone accessories are not phones, they're separate products made by separate entities. If Apple phones and Android phones were compatible then the apps would be addressing the same market. For example, phones from Samsung and phones from Xiaomi both run the same apps, so they're in the same market. However, phones from Apple and phones from Samsung do not run the same apps. They're different markets. And Apple has a monopoly on the former.
jobs_throwaway 2y ago
You don't see how you can be a monopoly with nearly 2/3 market share and 2.5x market size of your next-largest competitor? You must not be very imaginative
- hyperbovine 2y ago
  Some other companies with similar market share: - Coca Cola - DoorDash - Adobe - Tesla - Canon digital cameras I guess we should break all them up too.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    If they abuse their market dominance, we absolutely should.
    - hyperbovine 2y ago
      Please precisely quantify how none of these companies do that except Apple.

jimbokun 2y ago

> refusing to acknowledge that Apple is its own market in and of itself. Is the market iOS devices or smart phones? I think the definition of "market" is usually one of the most difficult questions to answer in anti-trust litigation.