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My perspective: I'm an (Technical) Information Security Officer in the Netherlands and I'm at €120k if I include pension contributions (Which Dutch people almos

My perspective: I'm an (Technical) Information Security Officer in the Netherlands and I'm at €120k if I include pension contributions (Which Dutch people almost never include in their 'gross' salary). And this is with all the employee protections you get when being salaried in the Netherlands. If you elect to go for a more American style contract with your employer where you have little to no protection you can easily make €200k or more. Two of my colleagues get €20k a month. Downside is that they're the first to go since they're more expensive and the company can just let you go for whatever reason they want essentially any time your contract is up for renewal. These are called 'independent contractors' in my country but essentially they are just employed 'at will' as Americans call it. I feel like most people online that complain about €30k salaries in Europe (which is minimum wage here by the way) are just parroting online meme talking points.

Aeolun 2y ago
Do you see any prospects of increasing that €120k? Because that’s one of my biggest issues with Europe.
- apexalpha 2y ago
  Well since I'm salaried it grows with (at least) the rate of inflation, thanks to unions. Also I'm 32 now so yeah I don't plan to stop investing and growing yet. Perhaps I will also swap to the independant contractor model in the future but for now I'm content with all the extra benefits being salaried brings.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Lol, ok. Yeah, at 32 with €120k salaried I think you are pretty well off. Especially compared to the median in that area.
    - apexalpha 2y ago
      Yes, all IT people in the Netherlands have benefitted from Brexit and Covid, indirectly. Companies shifting HQ's and hiring Dutch people remotely at London salaries has pushed up our compensation considerably in the last few years.
menaerus 2y ago
> are just parroting online meme talking points This is a great way of discrediting somebody's else opinion and also incredibly a very rude one. I earn more than you do but that's besides the point since I'm most likely in 95th percentile of the market. The point that you're missing and that I'm trying to reinforce regardless of the very good position I'm in is that 50th percentile of the market is not anywhere near +100k EUR figure. I worked with 100s engineers across different domains in Europe so the sample size should be pretty representative. I also hired many engineers so I am familiar with the market value as well. Finally, you're also missing the point that your sample of dutch market isn't representative of all European countries markets.
- apexalpha 2y ago
  I'm sorry for the rude remark, but claiming software engineers and other IT professionals are working at the legal minimum wage came across as if you were mocking us. My apologies. And yes, perhaps the Dutch market is not representatie for all of the EU. But then again Silicon Valley isn't representative of all of the US but these salaries are usually posted for benchmark.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    Still your argument doesn't apply since I wasn't comparing salaries of experienced professionals but out of the University starting salaries. Considering the whole European market as a whole I think I was even optimistic with 30k figure since there are many professionals with years of experience still not managing to earn much more than that. And I'm talking about building smart stuff, algorithmic design. 100k USD figure OTOH was pessimistic and it didn't include SV starting salaries which would obviously be much larger than that.
    - apexalpha 2y ago
      Ah, okay. Well my starting salary was €50k in 2016 so it's probably €60k or €70k now. If we're considering entire continents I'd like to point out that the median salary in Mexico is €30k. :)
rahkiin 2y ago
And those independent contractors get no WW or WIA, have to pay their own AOV and ZVW and if they are sick for a month their contract is not renewed. So the difference is not even _that large_.

Aeolun 2y ago

Do you see any prospects of increasing that €120k? Because that’s one of my biggest issues with Europe.

apexalpha 2y ago
Well since I'm salaried it grows with (at least) the rate of inflation, thanks to unions. Also I'm 32 now so yeah I don't plan to stop investing and growing yet. Perhaps I will also swap to the independant contractor model in the future but for now I'm content with all the extra benefits being salaried brings.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Lol, ok. Yeah, at 32 with €120k salaried I think you are pretty well off. Especially compared to the median in that area.
  - apexalpha 2y ago
    Yes, all IT people in the Netherlands have benefitted from Brexit and Covid, indirectly. Companies shifting HQ's and hiring Dutch people remotely at London salaries has pushed up our compensation considerably in the last few years.

menaerus 2y ago

> are just parroting online meme talking points This is a great way of discrediting somebody's else opinion and also incredibly a very rude one. I earn more than you do but that's besides the point since I'm most likely in 95th percentile of the market. The point that you're missing and that I'm trying to reinforce regardless of the very good position I'm in is that 50th percentile of the market is not anywhere near +100k EUR figure. I worked with 100s engineers across different domains in Europe so the sample size should be pretty representative. I also hired many engineers so I am familiar with the market value as well. Finally, you're also missing the point that your sample of dutch market isn't representative of all European countries markets.

apexalpha 2y ago
I'm sorry for the rude remark, but claiming software engineers and other IT professionals are working at the legal minimum wage came across as if you were mocking us. My apologies. And yes, perhaps the Dutch market is not representatie for all of the EU. But then again Silicon Valley isn't representative of all of the US but these salaries are usually posted for benchmark.
- menaerus 2y ago
  Still your argument doesn't apply since I wasn't comparing salaries of experienced professionals but out of the University starting salaries. Considering the whole European market as a whole I think I was even optimistic with 30k figure since there are many professionals with years of experience still not managing to earn much more than that. And I'm talking about building smart stuff, algorithmic design. 100k USD figure OTOH was pessimistic and it didn't include SV starting salaries which would obviously be much larger than that.
  - apexalpha 2y ago
    Ah, okay. Well my starting salary was €50k in 2016 so it's probably €60k or €70k now. If we're considering entire continents I'd like to point out that the median salary in Mexico is €30k. :)

rahkiin 2y ago

And those independent contractors get no WW or WIA, have to pay their own AOV and ZVW and if they are sick for a month their contract is not renewed. So the difference is not even _that large_.