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Unless there is a massive rethink of a lot of laws we are running into a surveillance state worse than Orwell could have come up with. "No expectation of privac

Unless there is a massive rethink of a lot of laws we are running into a surveillance state worse than Orwell could have come up with. "No expectation of privacy in a public space" made sense when there were no databases that could record and analyze everything that's going on and people didn't live half of their lives on the internet. And tech is only going to accelerate the ease of total surveillance. I think Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. I think he had a point there. Instead of viewing the "Founding Fathers" as the ultimate source of wisdom we should accept that they made decisions that made sense during their time but times have changed so some decisions should change.

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Aurornis 2y ago
> I think Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. I think he had a point there. Instead of viewing the "Founding Fathers" as the ultimate source of wisdom we should accept that they made decisions that made sense during their time but times have changed so some decisions should change. These ideas sound great when you imagine ideal politicians doing exactly what you want. They're not so appealing when you remember that on a long enough timeline you'll get some political leaders who would abuse such a power to no end: Rewriting the constitution to give the president unchecked power or remove term limits would be more likely targets than anything you're imagining working in your favor.
- krapp 2y ago
  ...and simply not including the 19 year expiration in the new version because why would you?
geodel 2y ago
Why wait for 19 years? Lets change constitution along administration change in DC.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  You can! Just have to get the votes.
- gs17 2y ago
  Jefferson wanted 19 years to make it something each generation gets the chance to do, based on life expectancy at the time. >And the half of those of 21 years and upwards living at any one instant of time will be dead in 18 years 8 months, or say 19 years as the nearest integral number. Then 19 years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt. >[...] On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. [...] The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished then in their natural course with those who gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, and no longer. Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.
_bin_ 2y ago
> Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. This is a terrible idea, actually. The risks of opening the door to majorly modifying the Constitution are very, very high. There are a lot of core freedoms (speech, arms, press come to mind) that would likely come off worse, not better, were we to do so. Which get hit hardest would depend mostly on who's in office at the time, which is extra bad.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  You could always make sure it could only increase and not decrease privacy or what have you. Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be included and must never be removed. Gotta keep this small though, because then what's the point...
  - krapp 2y ago
    >You could always make sure it could only increase and not decrease privacy or what have you. How could one "make sure" of this, and with what authority? >Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be included and must never be removed. Again, says who? The constitution has expired, and with it any legal basis for such a requirement.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      Enforcement is always an issue either way though. So whoever does it today, or would do it either way in our hypothetical scenario.
    - gs17 2y ago
      I don't agree with the idea (and technically by Jefferson's logic it should now be a much longer period, which shows it would need to be more flexible), but whatever process approves the new Constitution (probably involving a Supreme Court-type entity) would have to require these changes. Future Constitutions would both have "this document expires in 19 years" and "the successor of this document must include this clause, and the clause 'this document expires in 19 years'", and another for privacy (which would be up to whatever court allows the new Constitution). Enforcement is still "difficult", but that's kind of inherent in the process.
eej71 2y ago
While Jefferson is an understandably venerated figure in the foundation of America, he was not active in the creation of the constitution. He of course wrote The Declaration of Independence and while having misgivings about the strength of the executive branch, he went on to become a hugely influential president. On the filp side, it took him a while to come around to see the folly that was the then French Revolution whereas his political critics - notably Adams, Washington, and the frequently maligned Hamilton, were quick to keep their distance from it. I like Jefferson but he sometimes seems to have an overly rosy and romantic view of revolutions. Tearing down is easy. Building up is very hard.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. I think he had a point there You want every state to come up with its own way of determining how to send delegates to a convention literally unbound by any law?
- sitkack 2y ago
  We are about to watch that show!
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Aurornis 2y ago

> I think Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. I think he had a point there. Instead of viewing the "Founding Fathers" as the ultimate source of wisdom we should accept that they made decisions that made sense during their time but times have changed so some decisions should change. These ideas sound great when you imagine ideal politicians doing exactly what you want. They're not so appealing when you remember that on a long enough timeline you'll get some political leaders who would abuse such a power to no end: Rewriting the constitution to give the president unchecked power or remove term limits would be more likely targets than anything you're imagining working in your favor.

krapp 2y ago
...and simply not including the 19 year expiration in the new version because why would you?

geodel 2y ago

Why wait for 19 years? Lets change constitution along administration change in DC.

baggy_trough 2y ago
You can! Just have to get the votes.
gs17 2y ago
Jefferson wanted 19 years to make it something each generation gets the chance to do, based on life expectancy at the time. >And the half of those of 21 years and upwards living at any one instant of time will be dead in 18 years 8 months, or say 19 years as the nearest integral number. Then 19 years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt. >[...] On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. [...] The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished then in their natural course with those who gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, and no longer. Every constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.

_bin_ 2y ago

> Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. This is a terrible idea, actually. The risks of opening the door to majorly modifying the Constitution are very, very high. There are a lot of core freedoms (speech, arms, press come to mind) that would likely come off worse, not better, were we to do so. Which get hit hardest would depend mostly on who's in office at the time, which is extra bad.

johnisgood 2y ago
You could always make sure it could only increase and not decrease privacy or what have you. Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be included and must never be removed. Gotta keep this small though, because then what's the point...
- krapp 2y ago
  >You could always make sure it could only increase and not decrease privacy or what have you. How could one "make sure" of this, and with what authority? >Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be included and must never be removed. Again, says who? The constitution has expired, and with it any legal basis for such a requirement.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Enforcement is always an issue either way though. So whoever does it today, or would do it either way in our hypothetical scenario.
  - gs17 2y ago
    I don't agree with the idea (and technically by Jefferson's logic it should now be a much longer period, which shows it would need to be more flexible), but whatever process approves the new Constitution (probably involving a Supreme Court-type entity) would have to require these changes. Future Constitutions would both have "this document expires in 19 years" and "the successor of this document must include this clause, and the clause 'this document expires in 19 years'", and another for privacy (which would be up to whatever court allows the new Constitution). Enforcement is still "difficult", but that's kind of inherent in the process.

eej71 2y ago

While Jefferson is an understandably venerated figure in the foundation of America, he was not active in the creation of the constitution. He of course wrote The Declaration of Independence and while having misgivings about the strength of the executive branch, he went on to become a hugely influential president. On the filp side, it took him a while to come around to see the folly that was the then French Revolution whereas his political critics - notably Adams, Washington, and the frequently maligned Hamilton, were quick to keep their distance from it. I like Jefferson but he sometimes seems to have an overly rosy and romantic view of revolutions. Tearing down is easy. Building up is very hard.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19 years. I think he had a point there You want every state to come up with its own way of determining how to send delegates to a convention literally unbound by any law?

sitkack 2y ago
We are about to watch that show!

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