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To save you wasting 10 minutes: The distinction between programmer and software developer in government definition, led to "programming" jobs dropping by 22%. T

by csomar 2y ago

To save you wasting 10 minutes: The distinction between programmer and software developer in government definition, led to "programming" jobs dropping by 22%. This doesn't affect the "Software development" industry which saw only a 0.3% drop. It is really a click bait.

infecto 2y ago
Agree on the click bait title but it did not save me a click. For those wondering more. There is some distinction, which I still do not fully comprehend between "programming" which is grunt work and "developer" which is ingesting requirements and coding on top of working with "programmers" to implement a client needs. If someone has more insight on the distinction I would love to understand because it could be interesting if programmer was the initial stepping stone into developer.
jt2190 2y ago
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) definitions: “Computer Programmer”: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes151251.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes151251.htm “Software Developer”: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm
ziddoap 2y ago
>The distinction between programmer and software developer in government definition To save the click on what this means specifically: "In the government’s schema, programmers do the grunt work while the much more numerous — and much faster-growing — software developers enjoy a broader remit. They figure out what clients need, design solutions and work with folks such as programmers and hardware engineers to implement them."
trescenzi 2y ago
It is clickbait, assuming you don’t know the distinction between a developer and a programmer. If you do it’s actually a pretty solid title. I’d argue it’s worth a read because the main point is very good. I think the core distinction is important and gets at what LLMs are and are not good at. LLMs are good at translating clear specifications into common programming languages. That is what a programmer, by the BLS’ definition, does. The hard part of being a software dev never has been writing the code. They are claiming that the act of programming is in the process of being replaced. That seems somewhat likely. However they aren’t saying that overall tech industry jobs nor even software dev jobs are decreasing.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  The problem is that I don't think this distinction actually exists outside the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The obvious hypothesis to me, which the source article doesn't seem to consider, is that this statistic isn't measuring anything other than a change in fashionable job titles.
  - trescenzi 2y ago
    I’ve been asked multiple times in interviews what I think the difference between a dev/engineer and a programmer is. As a hiring manager I’ve also had people ask me the question as a way to get at role expectations. These were all at smaller companies though and on the East Coast so it might be a small vs big company thing? But it’s definitively not just a BLS understanding of job roles. I do agree with your hypothesis though. The article doesn’t even account for the software engineer title either.
  - williamdclt 2y ago
    This is literally the first time that I hear someone making any difference between “programmer” and “developer”. Hell I don’t even think I’ve ever heard a difference with “software engineer”, apart from countries where engineer is a protected title
    - kohbo 2y ago
      If you don't work in the government sector than that makes sense
      - frumper 2y ago
        I work in government and my position has been reclassified from computer programmer to software developer and software engineer over the past 20 years. Same workload and skillset. We're even supporting some of that same software written 20 years ago.
  - redeux 2y ago
    If we assume programmer and software developer are the same job and there's been a 22% drop in programmers without a corresponding increase in devs, then it still seems like a net job loss?

by csomar 2y ago

infecto 2y ago

Agree on the click bait title but it did not save me a click. For those wondering more. There is some distinction, which I still do not fully comprehend between "programming" which is grunt work and "developer" which is ingesting requirements and coding on top of working with "programmers" to implement a client needs. If someone has more insight on the distinction I would love to understand because it could be interesting if programmer was the initial stepping stone into developer.

jt2190 2y ago

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) definitions: “Computer Programmer”: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes151251.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes151251.htm “Software Developer”: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm

ziddoap 2y ago

>The distinction between programmer and software developer in government definition To save the click on what this means specifically: "In the government’s schema, programmers do the grunt work while the much more numerous — and much faster-growing — software developers enjoy a broader remit. They figure out what clients need, design solutions and work with folks such as programmers and hardware engineers to implement them."

trescenzi 2y ago

It is clickbait, assuming you don’t know the distinction between a developer and a programmer. If you do it’s actually a pretty solid title. I’d argue it’s worth a read because the main point is very good. I think the core distinction is important and gets at what LLMs are and are not good at. LLMs are good at translating clear specifications into common programming languages. That is what a programmer, by the BLS’ definition, does. The hard part of being a software dev never has been writing the code. They are claiming that the act of programming is in the process of being replaced. That seems somewhat likely. However they aren’t saying that overall tech industry jobs nor even software dev jobs are decreasing.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
The problem is that I don't think this distinction actually exists outside the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The obvious hypothesis to me, which the source article doesn't seem to consider, is that this statistic isn't measuring anything other than a change in fashionable job titles.
- trescenzi 2y ago
  I’ve been asked multiple times in interviews what I think the difference between a dev/engineer and a programmer is. As a hiring manager I’ve also had people ask me the question as a way to get at role expectations. These were all at smaller companies though and on the East Coast so it might be a small vs big company thing? But it’s definitively not just a BLS understanding of job roles. I do agree with your hypothesis though. The article doesn’t even account for the software engineer title either.
- williamdclt 2y ago
  This is literally the first time that I hear someone making any difference between “programmer” and “developer”. Hell I don’t even think I’ve ever heard a difference with “software engineer”, apart from countries where engineer is a protected title
  - kohbo 2y ago
    If you don't work in the government sector than that makes sense
    - frumper 2y ago
      I work in government and my position has been reclassified from computer programmer to software developer and software engineer over the past 20 years. Same workload and skillset. We're even supporting some of that same software written 20 years ago.
- redeux 2y ago
  If we assume programmer and software developer are the same job and there's been a 22% drop in programmers without a corresponding increase in devs, then it still seems like a net job loss?