3 ms·

The committee tends to also provide bounds checked interfaces ( https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/span/at https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/

The committee tends to also provide bounds checked interfaces ( https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/span/at https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/span/at ). But that requires people read the documentation, and based on the number of people who I see write "std::endl" when they really want "'\n'", I don't have much hope for that ("std::endl" both sends '\n' to the stream, and flushes it; people are often surprised about the stream getting flushed).

AlotOfReading 2y ago
We've known since the 80s that programmers almost always choose the more ergonomic interface and telling people they're holding it wrong doesn't scale. Besides, throwing an exception is a terrible way to do range checking. There's a huge number of projects out there banning exceptions that would benefit from safe interfaces.
- shiomiru 2y ago
  > Besides, throwing an exception is a terrible way to do range checking. There's a huge number of projects out there banning exceptions that would benefit from safe interfaces. I thought "banning exceptions" would mean fno-exceptions, turning the throw into an abort - that's pretty good for a systems programming language, no? What other way would you propose?
  - anon-3988 2y ago
    Make it explicit that the API can fail. Panicking is not acceptable in systems programming. Force me to handle all the cases.
    - imtringued 2y ago
      I'm not trying to be provocative, but I genuinely am not seeing what the benefit of this "doctrine" is if the end result is a bunch of if else statements that do nothing, but bubble the error up and then exit the process anyway. Panicking is in no way different from say Undefined Behavior, with the exception that panicking tends to be "loud" and therefore fixed promptly.
      - anon-3988 2y ago
        EDIT: HN formatting is absolute horrendous so here's a pastebin https://pastebin.com/raw/BUJBAqc1 https://pastebin.com/raw/BUJBAqc1 > but bubble the error up and then exit the process anyway. What is so bad about this? Its only a problem because all languages are not ergonomic. Even Rust. Here's how to do it properly in my mind. What I am proposing is not Rust, but what I wish Rust would have been. First, you have functions that cannot fail ``` fn not_failable() -> Result<u32, ()> { return 0; } ``` Notice that the function still returns Result<T,E> but the error is (). Now what happens if the function can fail? ``` fn failable(value) -> Result<u32, () | A | B | C | D> { if value == 0 { return Ok(0); } else if value == 1 { return Err(A()); }else if value == 2 { return Err(B()); }else if value == 3 { return Err(C()); }else if value == 4 { return Err(D()); } } ``` Notice that we don't have to specify a type for the errors, they are just the unions of all the error types that is possibly returned by the function. This union could be inferred by the type system to be ergonomic (meaning it can be omitted from the type signature for ergonomic purposes) You might think that this is almost like exceptions. And you are right, but this is where exceptions got wrong, the user of this function. When using this function, you are forced to handle all the possible error types (exceptions) returned by the function ``` fn use1() -> Result<u32, () | C | D> { match failable() { Ok(v) => {} Err(A) => {} Err(B) => {} e => return Err(e), } } ``` Notice 2 things: 1. You are FORCED to handle all the possible exceptions. 2. You can specify which exceptions you want to handle and what you throw back. The difference to try/catch here is just the syntax. 3. The function signature can be automatically be duduced by the fact that A and B are already handlded, and that this function can only throw C or D now. Now you might complain about ergonomic, why can't things just blow up the moment anything bad happens? I propose a trait that will be automatically be implemented for all Result<T,E> ``` impl Unwrap for Result { fn unwrap(self) -> u32 { match self() { Ok(ok) => return ok, Err(err) => panic!("error"), } } } ``` Which means that you can simply do this, ``` fn fail_immediately() -> Result<u32, ()> { return failable().unwrap(); } ``` Or, if you want to bubble up the errors, you can use ? ``` fn fail_immediately() -> Result<u32, A | B | C | D> { return failable()?; } ```
        2y ago
- nemetroid 2y ago
  Ending your string literal with \n is much easier than using std::endl.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The comment was about bracket notation versus .at() My only opinion on the \n versus std::endl discussion is that people set overly aggressive linting rules that always flag endl even when flush is intended.

AlotOfReading 2y ago

We've known since the 80s that programmers almost always choose the more ergonomic interface and telling people they're holding it wrong doesn't scale. Besides, throwing an exception is a terrible way to do range checking. There's a huge number of projects out there banning exceptions that would benefit from safe interfaces.

shiomiru 2y ago
> Besides, throwing an exception is a terrible way to do range checking. There's a huge number of projects out there banning exceptions that would benefit from safe interfaces. I thought "banning exceptions" would mean fno-exceptions, turning the throw into an abort - that's pretty good for a systems programming language, no? What other way would you propose?
- anon-3988 2y ago
  Make it explicit that the API can fail. Panicking is not acceptable in systems programming. Force me to handle all the cases.
  - imtringued 2y ago
    I'm not trying to be provocative, but I genuinely am not seeing what the benefit of this "doctrine" is if the end result is a bunch of if else statements that do nothing, but bubble the error up and then exit the process anyway. Panicking is in no way different from say Undefined Behavior, with the exception that panicking tends to be "loud" and therefore fixed promptly.
    - anon-3988 2y ago
      EDIT: HN formatting is absolute horrendous so here's a pastebin https://pastebin.com/raw/BUJBAqc1 https://pastebin.com/raw/BUJBAqc1 > but bubble the error up and then exit the process anyway. What is so bad about this? Its only a problem because all languages are not ergonomic. Even Rust. Here's how to do it properly in my mind. What I am proposing is not Rust, but what I wish Rust would have been. First, you have functions that cannot fail ``` fn not_failable() -> Result<u32, ()> { return 0; } ``` Notice that the function still returns Result<T,E> but the error is (). Now what happens if the function can fail? ``` fn failable(value) -> Result<u32, () | A | B | C | D> { if value == 0 { return Ok(0); } else if value == 1 { return Err(A()); }else if value == 2 { return Err(B()); }else if value == 3 { return Err(C()); }else if value == 4 { return Err(D()); } } ``` Notice that we don't have to specify a type for the errors, they are just the unions of all the error types that is possibly returned by the function. This union could be inferred by the type system to be ergonomic (meaning it can be omitted from the type signature for ergonomic purposes) You might think that this is almost like exceptions. And you are right, but this is where exceptions got wrong, the user of this function. When using this function, you are forced to handle all the possible error types (exceptions) returned by the function ``` fn use1() -> Result<u32, () | C | D> { match failable() { Ok(v) => {} Err(A) => {} Err(B) => {} e => return Err(e), } } ``` Notice 2 things: 1. You are FORCED to handle all the possible exceptions. 2. You can specify which exceptions you want to handle and what you throw back. The difference to try/catch here is just the syntax. 3. The function signature can be automatically be duduced by the fact that A and B are already handlded, and that this function can only throw C or D now. Now you might complain about ergonomic, why can't things just blow up the moment anything bad happens? I propose a trait that will be automatically be implemented for all Result<T,E> ``` impl Unwrap for Result { fn unwrap(self) -> u32 { match self() { Ok(ok) => return ok, Err(err) => panic!("error"), } } } ``` Which means that you can simply do this, ``` fn fail_immediately() -> Result<u32, ()> { return failable().unwrap(); } ``` Or, if you want to bubble up the errors, you can use ? ``` fn fail_immediately() -> Result<u32, A | B | C | D> { return failable()?; } ```
      - 2y ago
nemetroid 2y ago
Ending your string literal with \n is much easier than using std::endl.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The comment was about bracket notation versus .at() My only opinion on the \n versus std::endl discussion is that people set overly aggressive linting rules that always flag endl even when flush is intended.