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Neither the Will nor the Cash: Why India Wins So Few Olympic Medals

51 points by nikunjk 14y ago

dsushant 14y ago
Every Olympic medal winner is an expert at his/her sport. Given that attaining expertise requires about 10 years of "deliberate practice" under the supervision of a capable coach, the deficiencies in India's sports management come under focus: 1. The lack of native coaches is evident from the need to depend on foreign coaches. This leads to obvious challenges for an aspiring sportsperson. For instance, many potential sports persons may just not be talent-spotted. 2. The incentives to pursue a career in sports are weak: The middle classes - who can think of funding their child's sports ambition - usually give in to the fear of being excluded from a "regular" career, usually based on education qualification.
flurie 14y ago
How does a country that bans guns entirely give athletes access to them?
- spitx 14y ago
  Interesting observation.
- _delirium 14y ago
  Most countries with strict gun control nonetheless have a way you can get access to rifles for sport-shooting at licensed facilities. One of the two Indian shooting-sport medallists is also in the army.
- WildUtah 14y ago
  Form a special branch of military service for athletes, form a special federal police squad for the best marksmen, issue special exemptions at the discretion of the president, or train overseas. All those methods have been used.
- five18pm 14y ago
  Guns are not banned in India. It just takes more effort to get guns. You need a license to own a firearm. One of the high courts declared that unless there is something adverse against the candidate one cannot be denied license. This effectively makes it a right to own a firearm.
  - bdunbar 14y ago
    This effectively makes it a right to own a firearm. Disagree. If the government _gives_ you something, it's not a right. It's just something they can take away from you when convenient.
alpine 14y ago
I also think it is a healthy sign that Indian democracy is working well in at least some respects. Their great rival China is apparently kidnapping some children who show signs of athletic potential and subjecting them to a life of intense training for a chance at an Olympic medal to promote the greatness of the mother country. India clearly hasn't chosen this route despite the pressure there must be to match China in all fields.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Indian democracy is anything but working well. Until the IOC forced the IOA (Indian Olympic Association) to fire him, the IOA's president was doing his job while imprisoned for embezzling an enormous amount of money during the construction process for the 2010 Commonwealth Games, held in New Delhi. Now that Kalmadi has been released due to "insufficient evidence", he's been reappointed as the president of the IOA. India might be a democracy in name, but rule of law is very poorly enforced.
  - alpine 14y ago
    Yes, that the impression I have as well, corruption being pretty much woven into the fabric of life.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- maxwin 14y ago
  I smell jealousy here. Although it's a fact that China spent a great sum of money and effort training their athletes and the children usually go though excess training(well, like Russia, Korea etc) , i don't think the athletes are being "kidnapped" or forced to become athletes. Many of the young athletes came from very poor family and this is a way to improve their lives (including their families and even the whole village). In fact, it's a privilege to be chosen.
  - Someone 14y ago
    'Forced' is relative, but in http://youtu.be/qij0QULBBdk http://youtu.be/qij0QULBBdk, the kids do not look like they feel privileged.
bluedevil2k 14y ago
I was working with many Indians a few years ago and they asked themselves the same question. One had an interesting take I've not heard elsewhere - he claimed that the large number of vegetarians in India results in poorer athletic potential - the lack of meat and protein leading to less strength, quickness, etc. It was an interesting idea, but looking up some facts myself right now, that claim could be tested by Pakistan's medal count. Same general genetic background, same general infrastructure problems, but are not generally vegetarians. However, Pakistan hasn't won a medal in 20 years, and only a few medals ever.
- mseebach 14y ago
  Indias GDP (PPP) per capita is 30% higher than Pakistan's, so there are clearly other differences between the two countries than meat.
  - alpine 14y ago
    However, I think they eat a lot more meat in Pakistan?
    - spitx 14y ago
      It would seem so. Although lentils, millets and cereals constitute a sizable portion of protein consumed by the average person.
- nimrody 14y ago
  There have been several very successful vegetarian athletes. One name that comes to mind is Dave Scott (The famous triathlete): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_(triathlete) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_(triathlete) ). Quoting wikipedia: "During the period in which he won all six of his Hawaiian triathlons Dave Scott followed a strict vegetarian (vegan) diet."
  - ciupicri 14y ago
    Dave Scott was awesome for sure, but what matters here are the Olympic sports and each one requires certain characteristics. You won't see a weightlifter competing in canoe, 5000+ running/walking or shooting for example.
michaelt 14y ago
I heard a discussion of this on Radio 4's excellent More Or Less podcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd They pointed out Korea tend to do well in per capita medal counts as Taekwondo is a popular sport there - and there are gold, silver and two bronze medals in four weight categories for two genders - a total of 32 medals available. On the other hand cricket, one of the most popular sports in India, has zero olympic medals.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  That can only be a small part of the story. If you look at the current medal count, South Korea has 16 while India has just 2. But none of those 16 Korean medals are from taekwondo. There are 3 judo medals, but that is technically a Japanese sport, not Korean.
  - hazov 14y ago
    Korea was once a part of the Japanese empire and according to older members of the Korean community in São Paulo* the Japanese governor outlawed Korean martial arts and promoted Kendo and Judo at schools. Korean Kendo is known a Kumdo. Koreans are also crazy about archery, shooting and badminton, sports in which they generally go well. *I used to live in "Bom Retiro" neighborhood in São Paulo which is a center of the Korean community here, they said me that exactly.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      Korea was only a Japanese colony for 35 years (1910-1945). After the Japanese occupation ended, the Koreans did their best to reject everything Japanese, so I don't think you can base your conclusion on that. I don't deny that the Koreans do well in other sports, just that it's not like they have a cultural advantage or something. For example, their dominance in archery at the 2008 games was partially due to their building an exact replica of the Beijing archery range in Korea 2 years earlier and using it to practice. Many other competitors had never practiced on that archery range until they arrived at the Olympics, and it threw them off.
cinbun8 14y ago
It comes down to whether you can make a living in India if you get into sports. The economics around it are strong enough to force out anyone considering sports. Cricket is the only sport in India that can get you top dollar whether you make it big or small. The compensation provided to a person playing hockey or table-tennis is meager in comparison. Those that are talented and have the will + passion for the sport shine as long as they have enough funds. Then there are those [1] that have to sell their bow to make ends meet despite securing a silver medal at the south asian championships. It was heart breaking reading that. [1] - http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article3278302.ece http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article3278...
- ebr4him 14y ago
  You nailed it! I'm an Indian.
deskamess 14y ago
No real interest in sports unless it is cricket. There are pockets where there is a significant secondary interest in soccer (WB, Kerala come to mind) and hockey but other than that it is cricket, cricket, cricket. Where money is allocated to sports the bureaucrats insert themselves into the pipeline. There was a story[1] where an olympic bound athlete [flag bearer] wanted to pay for his physio guy to come along. Of the 142 member team there are 61 non athletes. You would hope that 50 or so of them would be for the needs of the athletes (like physio, etc). Somehow I doubt that... So the article has the right tone... very little infrastructure and no strategic effort in improving it. [1]http://dawn.com/2012/07/20/indias-top-wrestler-upset-over-lack-of-physio/ http://dawn.com/2012/07/20/indias-top-wrestler-upset-over-la...
yummyfajitas 14y ago
When I lived in India, I certainly observed that no one there seemed to care about athletics. It's just not in the culture. I'd regularly go jogging. People would stop and stare - doubly so if I stopped running and did pushups. In my entire time there, I saw perhaps 3-4 Indians running, and considerably more foreigners. The Pune running club was comprised primarily of people who spent time overseas and expats. During a conversation with an auto driver, he told me that Indian's don't do "poses" (i.e., yoga) - "that stuff is just for tourists". (I gather there is some regional variation.) So my guess that the reason India doesn't have a lot of medals is that people just don't care to compete for them.
- _debug_ 14y ago
  IMHO, with a billion people, I believe that BOTH a) your generalization is true, i.e., the majority is disinterested AND b) not relevant w.r.t. Olympic medal-winning potential : it is enough for a small minority to be interested in sport / fitness & glory to make the cut for the olympics. I believe that the 80/20 rule applies, and is actually more of a 95/5 rule in most societies and most achievements : 5% of the population account for the glory (, the rest just wake the flag and feel proud, conveniently forgetting that one cannot be proud of what one did not achieve personally). I suspect you might find a similar proportion of everday Chinese equally disinterested in "poses" (not sure, just speculation). I believe that the core reason is our usual friend, corruption and red tape. It's not just sports; in general, the meritocratic lose out because wherever there is an opportunity in India, whatever be the form of opportunity. That includes what is rightfully yours, such as welfare handouts, your passport, etc; An Indian's everyday life consists of jumping through hoops to get basic things done. Disclaimer : am Indian.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    There certainly is some 95/5 rule, or probably a 999/1 rule. But you need to apply the 999/1 rule to the people actually interested in going for the gold. I.e., in the US that might be 0.001 x 25% whereas in India it might be closer to 0.001 x 5%. My issue with theories like corruption/red tape/etc is that India is not unique in this regard. India is pretty bad with corruption, but Jamaica is too. Yet Jamaica tends to perform pretty well - running is popular there. You can find plenty of corrupt and poor countries that outperform India, particularly if you adjust for population. China is a special case since the government basically forces people to shoot for Olympic gold in marginal sports (e.g., discus, javelin) and trains them from early ages to do so. They also use eugenics to breed top athletes (Yao Ming is one famous result of this), and similar things.
laktek 14y ago
What India can do is persuade IOC to include cricket as an event (but still with counterparts such as Australia, South Africa & Sri Lanka their chances could be thin).
- dsr_ 14y ago
  They would have a better chance of doing that if a cricket match actually lasted an hour, rather than days...
  - laktek 14y ago
    Well, there's actually T20 Cricket which lasts in about 3 hours.
  - manojlds 14y ago
    There is still this belief that Cricket matches run for days. There is an newer format called t20 , which lasts only 3hours. Many tennis games take more time than that!
mailarchis 14y ago
"Sport was never a priority for a majority of [Indian] parents and their kids," this line says it all. India doesn't have a culture that encourages sports. In a typical middle class family, the parents are actively involved in education of their kids but when it comes to sports they will draw some ground rules like 4 to 6 pm for playing, then studies and no play time during exams and that's about it.
parfe 14y ago
http://cruelandunusualgeography.com/ http://cruelandunusualgeography.com/ Provides per capita tracking of medals won. Currently New Zealand is in first place with 3 golds and 4 bronzes. India has 1 silver and 1 bronze putting them in 45th place.
- Someone 14y ago
  Better, but per capita computation punishes larger countries because, in many sports, the number of competitors a country can send is independent of population. For example, if China were to split in four, the four parts would almost certainly win more medals in table tennis than China does now. Similarly, 'US West' would play 'US East' in the basketball final, but the USA will get at most one medal.
  - vacri 14y ago
    It doesn't really punish larger countries, because larger countries can send much, much broader teams. Try and find a sport that doesn't have the Chinese or Americans competing in it. Then do the same for small-but-not-tiny countries like New Zealand, Ireland or even Greece.
    - Someone 14y ago
      They send larger teams, but not in 1:1 proportion to their population: China : 1347M people, 386 participants USA : 314M people, 530 participants New Zealand: 4M people, 184 participants Ireland : 5M people, 66 participants Greece : 11M people, 105 participants (sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population, http://totallympics.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2312 http://totallympics.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=231...) So, the USA has 62 times the population, but only about 8 times the number of competitors as Ireland. If it was a lottery, you would not expect them to win 62 times the number of medals. So, yes, it does punish larger countries. And, from that second link, 'HA' is the sport you asked for (I guess that is handball; makes sense as that is easter European/Scandinavian dominated; http://www.london2012.com/handball/ http://www.london2012.com/handball/ confirms that)
kamaal 14y ago
There are some things in this article that are true and some false. And as an Indian I can tell you that are many things that people don't understand. India is huge country. Huge, I mean so huge that it will be difficult to truly explain the diversity we have here. It will be easy for a German to explain what Germany is, Or French to explain what France is and so on. But it will be very difficult for an Indian to explain what India is in totality basically because there are thousands of cultures, ways of lives, languages, people of ethnic origin, color, language, religion and so on and so forth. In fact any form of classification that you can come up to we have diverse categories in that. This is not true for China. Or Korea or Thailand. Because they are a single ethnic group. People who talk of deficiencies or things not being a part of Indian culture do not understand Indian culture. In India you will see large metropolitan cities acting as hubs for employment, living and opportunities. Go to villages you see poverty you also see prosperity(Depending on where you go). You will see most advanced technologies to old stone age agriculture methods. At one end you will see farmers in the area of Punjab being the richest of the lot and you will also see farmers committing suicide due to debt and poverty. You will see people eating stomach full to people barely affording a meal a day. Amidst all this we have a thriving industry in every domain of business you can imagine. We have the best colleges and universities and we also have a huge problem of illiteracy. We write software, we have a nuclear weapons program, despite being the worlds most peaceful nation we have one of the largest armies in the world. We have a space program. Yet at the same time we struggle to feed our self. Our society still has the stains of socialism and communism from the old days. We still have massive corruption and inefficiency in government layers. Amidst all this parents feels their kids are better off studying and getting good jobs to make a living than doing something like sports which don't offer much incentive to make a comfortable living. There are instances of gold medal winners pawn broking their medals to afford a day's meal. Also there are not many facilities and training options if you want to be a serious athlete. At the same time we don't believe China kind of policies either.
- elssar 14y ago
  Erm, care to point out a few of the things in the article that are false? I could find none. The article does not try to explain what India is, but why India doesn't win as many medals in the Olympics as are expected from a nation this big. And it's does a pretty decent job of that IMO.
jezclaremurugan 14y ago
Corruption and regional politics are major factors too. Suffice it to say sports is not very meritocratic in India. A person has to be exceptionally talented to jump through all the hoops. Quoting from http://www.indianexpress.com/news/corruption-in-sports-leads-arjuna-awardees-to-annas-campaign/835202/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/corruption-in-sports-leads... Sunita Godara, a former marathon runner and Arjuna Award winner, said, “We decided to join Anna Hazare as we have been fighting against corruption at various levels in the sports bodies for the past 20 years. There is favouritism in the selection process and corruption at every level.”
w1ntermute 14y ago
This seems like a great opportunity for America - send some scouts to India to find poor young children that show athletic talent, tell their parents (or adopt them if they're orphans) that they can be American citizens if they let them go to America for athletic training. Give them American citizenship by the time they turn 16 (the age required for Olympic participation), and we'll be able to easily raise our Olympic medal count. It's a win-win situation - the US increases its medal count and the children get a vastly better life than their parents.
- eshvk 14y ago
  This seems like a good idea but there are a couple of issues though: 1. I believe from anecdotal evidence most young children start serious preparation so that by their teens, they would have to have a significant portion of their technique mastered so that talent can start playing a significant role. However, I am not sure how easy it is identify the kids pre-teenage. 2. Investment costs: Importing a group of people just for the sole purpose of racking up medals (non withstanding the inherent creepiness of it) will be tremendously expensive. How do you justify the expense if the children don't want to do it eventually?
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > However, I am not sure how easy it is identify the kids pre-teenage. I'm not sure how the Chinese do it, but this is exactly their approach. Children with talent (or at least some signs of it) are taken at a very young age (~5 y/o) and intensively trained. > Importing a group of people just for the sole purpose of racking up medals (non withstanding the inherent creepiness of it) will be tremendously expensive. How do you justify the expense if the children don't want to do it eventually? Will it be expensive? I made this suggestion based on the assumption that, as with the IT industry, it's more cost efficient to bring in workers from abroad than to depend on domestic talent. In any case, from what I can tell, the main costs come from buying equipment and hiring coaches, not from the children. All you have to do is pay for their food, shelter, schooling, and other basic needs. The children of course will not be forced to remain in the program if they do not want to. Contrary to popular belief, this is the system used by China - no one is kidnapped or coerced into participating, although that no doubt happens in North Korea. In any case, the US policy would be that at any point, they can quit and go back home, if they so desire. Citizenship would be reserved for those who stick with the program until they are of Olympic age (of course, there would be weeding out as well, so the numbers would be relatively low). And even if they end up going back at the age of 10, they would have greatly benefited from just getting nutritious food during a crucial part of their childhood - child malnutrition rates in India are almost 50%, even higher than those in sub-Saharan Africa. Childhood malnutrition leads to lifelong physical and mental infirmity, so the children would no doubt benefit. There's no denying the creepiness to some people, although I don't see it that way (America is a nation of immigrants who came for a better life, and that would describe these kids perfectly). This would be a cost-efficient and humane way to reassert US Olympic dominance over China, something that a lot of people are concerned with.
manojlds 14y ago
While the article is true, it misses the point that the games and sports that India does excel in, do not feature in the Olympics. Cricket, kabadi, kho kho, chess etc. I am really surprised that GB did not make an effort to have T20 Cricket in Olympics, as that format is much more amenable to Olympics and arguably, more popular with today's spectators. Another point that is missed is the Indian diet. A large portion of the population is vegetarian ( and not all kinds of meat are eaten ). And Indians are foodies that like to eat spicy, oily food etc.
- eshvk 14y ago
  > Another point that is missed is the Indian diet. A large portion of the population is vegetarian ( and not all kinds of meat are eaten ). Could you clarify further what proportion of the population is vegetarian? Surely, there are high protein vegetarian diets (say something concentrated in Whey) that athletes could do? > And Indians are foodies that like to eat spicy, oily food etc. Not sure how this is relevant. Assuming that there is a inherent cultural bias towards spicy food, it is not that difficult for a competitive athlete to go on a stricter regime while working towards victory.
spitx 14y ago
Despite the in-vogue arguments that come with sparse evidence to support that a vegetarian diet can indeed match the athletic predisposition and performance of a non-vegetarian one, I find it highly suspect that regions of the world ( including India ) which have had to rely exclusively on plant protein for hundreds of generations would yield the same athleticism predisposition rates as regions that haven't had such a constraint. Consistently high preponderance in vegetarianism (in India) has to share some of the blame for a lack luster interest in athleticism and athletic activities. There is simply no other very large land mass that has a cultural history of very high (and almost exclusive) dependence on plant protein. This does not even begin to tell the tale of the deleterious effects of a diet entirely devoid of testosterone-laden red meat.
anuraj 14y ago
India is an impoverished nation. More than 55% of people are severely malnourished. To top it, the militant brahmanic Hindutva of North India advocates vegetarianism - which equates to further lack of proteins. And the caste system that looks down upon manual labor and subsequent sedentary lifestyle for last 3000 years have made Indians a weak race. To top it corruption and lack of self drive.
hazov 14y ago
Brazil and Mexico suffer from the same problem, they are middle income countries with more than a 100 million people and yet they are not much better than Kenya, and although not a country with much people Israelis are richer than the majority of the world they do not go well in the Olympics either, so money just do not buy a good Olympics performance like the article tried to sell. One thing that can explain is culture, Australia has a culture for competition, for example Australian lifeguards compete in the Surf Life Saving competition in aquatic sports, it's not a coincidence that Australia goes well in aquatic sports in the Olympics, Swimming, Rowing and Sailing are responsible for half their gold medals.
tathagata 14y ago
India is a big country with a huge population. As with many other complex phenomena, there is no one reason which can explain why India is not doing well in sports. My guess is that the country is just going through a trough. Wait for a few more generations and see. In general, as economic forces level the playing field for most countries around the world, the medals tally will start correlating well with the population.
sunjain 14y ago
I would attribute this to the following: 1. As a society, and culturally India historically has not given sufficient importance to physical fitness. So while historically there was great importance given to spiritual and philosophical pursuits(they had universities setup more then thousand years back dedicated to philosophy - Nalanda), the physical/bodily aspect was not only overlooked but considered almost an overhead/obstacle to ultimate goal in life. Even Yoga's birth(in India) was related more to spiritual pursuit. Not surprising to see origins of Chess in India(even though Chess is a sport, but it is mental). And India does reasonably good in Chess even now. 2. Even the food habits, historically, in India are geared more towards supporting this bent towards mental/spiritual aspects than physical. Hence prevalence of vegetrianism. Now vegetarianism can be one of the healthiest lifestyle(there has been known triathletes who are pure vegetarians)...but that requires a well balanced diet - which is not the case for majority in India(for most in India, vegetarian diet has lot of grease and less nutrition). 3. There is a reason why Cricket is the most popular sport in India - it does not require great physical fitness yet you can play it for hours. And cricket does grab a lion share of sporting opportunities in India (and most lucrative). 3. Prevalent thinking still is that sports is waste of time, and you are better of spending that time on studies...hence you will see abundance of Indian American spelling bee champs even here in US, yet you will not see many in athletics 4. Combine that with lack of creativity and focus from Government in India in identifying(and persisting) with a sport which can fetch medals (like Turkey etc)
ck2 14y ago
I wonder how much building their nuclear weapons cost.

51 points by nikunjk 14y ago

Every Olympic medal winner is an expert at his/her sport. Given that attaining expertise requires about 10 years of "deliberate practice" under the supervision of a capable coach, the deficiencies in India's sports management come under focus: 1. The lack of native coaches is evident from the need to depend on foreign coaches. This leads to obvious challenges for an aspiring sportsperson. For instance, many potential sports persons may just not be talent-spotted. 2. The incentives to pursue a career in sports are weak: The middle classes - who can think of funding their child's sports ambition - usually give in to the fear of being excluded from a "regular" career, usually based on education qualification.

flurie 14y ago

How does a country that bans guns entirely give athletes access to them?

spitx 14y ago
Interesting observation.
_delirium 14y ago
Most countries with strict gun control nonetheless have a way you can get access to rifles for sport-shooting at licensed facilities. One of the two Indian shooting-sport medallists is also in the army.
WildUtah 14y ago
Form a special branch of military service for athletes, form a special federal police squad for the best marksmen, issue special exemptions at the discretion of the president, or train overseas. All those methods have been used.
five18pm 14y ago
Guns are not banned in India. It just takes more effort to get guns. You need a license to own a firearm. One of the high courts declared that unless there is something adverse against the candidate one cannot be denied license. This effectively makes it a right to own a firearm.
- bdunbar 14y ago
  This effectively makes it a right to own a firearm. Disagree. If the government _gives_ you something, it's not a right. It's just something they can take away from you when convenient.

alpine 14y ago

I also think it is a healthy sign that Indian democracy is working well in at least some respects. Their great rival China is apparently kidnapping some children who show signs of athletic potential and subjecting them to a life of intense training for a chance at an Olympic medal to promote the greatness of the mother country. India clearly hasn't chosen this route despite the pressure there must be to match China in all fields.

w1ntermute 14y ago
Indian democracy is anything but working well. Until the IOC forced the IOA (Indian Olympic Association) to fire him, the IOA's president was doing his job while imprisoned for embezzling an enormous amount of money during the construction process for the 2010 Commonwealth Games, held in New Delhi. Now that Kalmadi has been released due to "insufficient evidence", he's been reappointed as the president of the IOA. India might be a democracy in name, but rule of law is very poorly enforced.
- alpine 14y ago
  Yes, that the impression I have as well, corruption being pretty much woven into the fabric of life.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
maxwin 14y ago
I smell jealousy here. Although it's a fact that China spent a great sum of money and effort training their athletes and the children usually go though excess training(well, like Russia, Korea etc) , i don't think the athletes are being "kidnapped" or forced to become athletes. Many of the young athletes came from very poor family and this is a way to improve their lives (including their families and even the whole village). In fact, it's a privilege to be chosen.
- Someone 14y ago
  'Forced' is relative, but in http://youtu.be/qij0QULBBdk http://youtu.be/qij0QULBBdk, the kids do not look like they feel privileged.

bluedevil2k 14y ago

I was working with many Indians a few years ago and they asked themselves the same question. One had an interesting take I've not heard elsewhere - he claimed that the large number of vegetarians in India results in poorer athletic potential - the lack of meat and protein leading to less strength, quickness, etc. It was an interesting idea, but looking up some facts myself right now, that claim could be tested by Pakistan's medal count. Same general genetic background, same general infrastructure problems, but are not generally vegetarians. However, Pakistan hasn't won a medal in 20 years, and only a few medals ever.

mseebach 14y ago
Indias GDP (PPP) per capita is 30% higher than Pakistan's, so there are clearly other differences between the two countries than meat.
- alpine 14y ago
  However, I think they eat a lot more meat in Pakistan?
  - spitx 14y ago
    It would seem so. Although lentils, millets and cereals constitute a sizable portion of protein consumed by the average person.
nimrody 14y ago
There have been several very successful vegetarian athletes. One name that comes to mind is Dave Scott (The famous triathlete): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_(triathlete) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_(triathlete) ). Quoting wikipedia: "During the period in which he won all six of his Hawaiian triathlons Dave Scott followed a strict vegetarian (vegan) diet."
- ciupicri 14y ago
  Dave Scott was awesome for sure, but what matters here are the Olympic sports and each one requires certain characteristics. You won't see a weightlifter competing in canoe, 5000+ running/walking or shooting for example.

michaelt 14y ago

I heard a discussion of this on Radio 4's excellent More Or Less podcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qshd They pointed out Korea tend to do well in per capita medal counts as Taekwondo is a popular sport there - and there are gold, silver and two bronze medals in four weight categories for two genders - a total of 32 medals available. On the other hand cricket, one of the most popular sports in India, has zero olympic medals.

w1ntermute 14y ago
That can only be a small part of the story. If you look at the current medal count, South Korea has 16 while India has just 2. But none of those 16 Korean medals are from taekwondo. There are 3 judo medals, but that is technically a Japanese sport, not Korean.
- hazov 14y ago
  Korea was once a part of the Japanese empire and according to older members of the Korean community in São Paulo* the Japanese governor outlawed Korean martial arts and promoted Kendo and Judo at schools. Korean Kendo is known a Kumdo. Koreans are also crazy about archery, shooting and badminton, sports in which they generally go well. *I used to live in "Bom Retiro" neighborhood in São Paulo which is a center of the Korean community here, they said me that exactly.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    Korea was only a Japanese colony for 35 years (1910-1945). After the Japanese occupation ended, the Koreans did their best to reject everything Japanese, so I don't think you can base your conclusion on that. I don't deny that the Koreans do well in other sports, just that it's not like they have a cultural advantage or something. For example, their dominance in archery at the 2008 games was partially due to their building an exact replica of the Beijing archery range in Korea 2 years earlier and using it to practice. Many other competitors had never practiced on that archery range until they arrived at the Olympics, and it threw them off.

cinbun8 14y ago

It comes down to whether you can make a living in India if you get into sports. The economics around it are strong enough to force out anyone considering sports. Cricket is the only sport in India that can get you top dollar whether you make it big or small. The compensation provided to a person playing hockey or table-tennis is meager in comparison. Those that are talented and have the will + passion for the sport shine as long as they have enough funds. Then there are those [1] that have to sell their bow to make ends meet despite securing a silver medal at the south asian championships. It was heart breaking reading that. [1] - http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article3278302.ece http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article3278...

ebr4him 14y ago
You nailed it! I'm an Indian.

deskamess 14y ago

No real interest in sports unless it is cricket. There are pockets where there is a significant secondary interest in soccer (WB, Kerala come to mind) and hockey but other than that it is cricket, cricket, cricket. Where money is allocated to sports the bureaucrats insert themselves into the pipeline. There was a story[1] where an olympic bound athlete [flag bearer] wanted to pay for his physio guy to come along. Of the 142 member team there are 61 non athletes. You would hope that 50 or so of them would be for the needs of the athletes (like physio, etc). Somehow I doubt that... So the article has the right tone... very little infrastructure and no strategic effort in improving it. [1]http://dawn.com/2012/07/20/indias-top-wrestler-upset-over-lack-of-physio/ http://dawn.com/2012/07/20/indias-top-wrestler-upset-over-la...

yummyfajitas 14y ago

When I lived in India, I certainly observed that no one there seemed to care about athletics. It's just not in the culture. I'd regularly go jogging. People would stop and stare - doubly so if I stopped running and did pushups. In my entire time there, I saw perhaps 3-4 Indians running, and considerably more foreigners. The Pune running club was comprised primarily of people who spent time overseas and expats. During a conversation with an auto driver, he told me that Indian's don't do "poses" (i.e., yoga) - "that stuff is just for tourists". (I gather there is some regional variation.) So my guess that the reason India doesn't have a lot of medals is that people just don't care to compete for them.

_debug_ 14y ago
IMHO, with a billion people, I believe that BOTH a) your generalization is true, i.e., the majority is disinterested AND b) not relevant w.r.t. Olympic medal-winning potential : it is enough for a small minority to be interested in sport / fitness & glory to make the cut for the olympics. I believe that the 80/20 rule applies, and is actually more of a 95/5 rule in most societies and most achievements : 5% of the population account for the glory (, the rest just wake the flag and feel proud, conveniently forgetting that one cannot be proud of what one did not achieve personally). I suspect you might find a similar proportion of everday Chinese equally disinterested in "poses" (not sure, just speculation). I believe that the core reason is our usual friend, corruption and red tape. It's not just sports; in general, the meritocratic lose out because wherever there is an opportunity in India, whatever be the form of opportunity. That includes what is rightfully yours, such as welfare handouts, your passport, etc; An Indian's everyday life consists of jumping through hoops to get basic things done. Disclaimer : am Indian.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  There certainly is some 95/5 rule, or probably a 999/1 rule. But you need to apply the 999/1 rule to the people actually interested in going for the gold. I.e., in the US that might be 0.001 x 25% whereas in India it might be closer to 0.001 x 5%. My issue with theories like corruption/red tape/etc is that India is not unique in this regard. India is pretty bad with corruption, but Jamaica is too. Yet Jamaica tends to perform pretty well - running is popular there. You can find plenty of corrupt and poor countries that outperform India, particularly if you adjust for population. China is a special case since the government basically forces people to shoot for Olympic gold in marginal sports (e.g., discus, javelin) and trains them from early ages to do so. They also use eugenics to breed top athletes (Yao Ming is one famous result of this), and similar things.

laktek 14y ago

What India can do is persuade IOC to include cricket as an event (but still with counterparts such as Australia, South Africa & Sri Lanka their chances could be thin).

dsr_ 14y ago
They would have a better chance of doing that if a cricket match actually lasted an hour, rather than days...
- laktek 14y ago
  Well, there's actually T20 Cricket which lasts in about 3 hours.
- manojlds 14y ago
  There is still this belief that Cricket matches run for days. There is an newer format called t20 , which lasts only 3hours. Many tennis games take more time than that!

mailarchis 14y ago

"Sport was never a priority for a majority of [Indian] parents and their kids," this line says it all. India doesn't have a culture that encourages sports. In a typical middle class family, the parents are actively involved in education of their kids but when it comes to sports they will draw some ground rules like 4 to 6 pm for playing, then studies and no play time during exams and that's about it.

parfe 14y ago

http://cruelandunusualgeography.com/ http://cruelandunusualgeography.com/ Provides per capita tracking of medals won. Currently New Zealand is in first place with 3 golds and 4 bronzes. India has 1 silver and 1 bronze putting them in 45th place.

Someone 14y ago
Better, but per capita computation punishes larger countries because, in many sports, the number of competitors a country can send is independent of population. For example, if China were to split in four, the four parts would almost certainly win more medals in table tennis than China does now. Similarly, 'US West' would play 'US East' in the basketball final, but the USA will get at most one medal.
- vacri 14y ago
  It doesn't really punish larger countries, because larger countries can send much, much broader teams. Try and find a sport that doesn't have the Chinese or Americans competing in it. Then do the same for small-but-not-tiny countries like New Zealand, Ireland or even Greece.
  - Someone 14y ago
    They send larger teams, but not in 1:1 proportion to their population: China : 1347M people, 386 participants USA : 314M people, 530 participants New Zealand: 4M people, 184 participants Ireland : 5M people, 66 participants Greece : 11M people, 105 participants (sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population, http://totallympics.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2312 http://totallympics.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=231...) So, the USA has 62 times the population, but only about 8 times the number of competitors as Ireland. If it was a lottery, you would not expect them to win 62 times the number of medals. So, yes, it does punish larger countries. And, from that second link, 'HA' is the sport you asked for (I guess that is handball; makes sense as that is easter European/Scandinavian dominated; http://www.london2012.com/handball/ http://www.london2012.com/handball/ confirms that)

kamaal 14y ago

There are some things in this article that are true and some false. And as an Indian I can tell you that are many things that people don't understand. India is huge country. Huge, I mean so huge that it will be difficult to truly explain the diversity we have here. It will be easy for a German to explain what Germany is, Or French to explain what France is and so on. But it will be very difficult for an Indian to explain what India is in totality basically because there are thousands of cultures, ways of lives, languages, people of ethnic origin, color, language, religion and so on and so forth. In fact any form of classification that you can come up to we have diverse categories in that. This is not true for China. Or Korea or Thailand. Because they are a single ethnic group. People who talk of deficiencies or things not being a part of Indian culture do not understand Indian culture. In India you will see large metropolitan cities acting as hubs for employment, living and opportunities. Go to villages you see poverty you also see prosperity(Depending on where you go). You will see most advanced technologies to old stone age agriculture methods. At one end you will see farmers in the area of Punjab being the richest of the lot and you will also see farmers committing suicide due to debt and poverty. You will see people eating stomach full to people barely affording a meal a day. Amidst all this we have a thriving industry in every domain of business you can imagine. We have the best colleges and universities and we also have a huge problem of illiteracy. We write software, we have a nuclear weapons program, despite being the worlds most peaceful nation we have one of the largest armies in the world. We have a space program. Yet at the same time we struggle to feed our self. Our society still has the stains of socialism and communism from the old days. We still have massive corruption and inefficiency in government layers. Amidst all this parents feels their kids are better off studying and getting good jobs to make a living than doing something like sports which don't offer much incentive to make a comfortable living. There are instances of gold medal winners pawn broking their medals to afford a day's meal. Also there are not many facilities and training options if you want to be a serious athlete. At the same time we don't believe China kind of policies either.

elssar 14y ago
Erm, care to point out a few of the things in the article that are false? I could find none. The article does not try to explain what India is, but why India doesn't win as many medals in the Olympics as are expected from a nation this big. And it's does a pretty decent job of that IMO.

jezclaremurugan 14y ago

Corruption and regional politics are major factors too. Suffice it to say sports is not very meritocratic in India. A person has to be exceptionally talented to jump through all the hoops. Quoting from http://www.indianexpress.com/news/corruption-in-sports-leads-arjuna-awardees-to-annas-campaign/835202/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/corruption-in-sports-leads... Sunita Godara, a former marathon runner and Arjuna Award winner, said, “We decided to join Anna Hazare as we have been fighting against corruption at various levels in the sports bodies for the past 20 years. There is favouritism in the selection process and corruption at every level.”

w1ntermute 14y ago

This seems like a great opportunity for America - send some scouts to India to find poor young children that show athletic talent, tell their parents (or adopt them if they're orphans) that they can be American citizens if they let them go to America for athletic training. Give them American citizenship by the time they turn 16 (the age required for Olympic participation), and we'll be able to easily raise our Olympic medal count. It's a win-win situation - the US increases its medal count and the children get a vastly better life than their parents.

eshvk 14y ago
This seems like a good idea but there are a couple of issues though: 1. I believe from anecdotal evidence most young children start serious preparation so that by their teens, they would have to have a significant portion of their technique mastered so that talent can start playing a significant role. However, I am not sure how easy it is identify the kids pre-teenage. 2. Investment costs: Importing a group of people just for the sole purpose of racking up medals (non withstanding the inherent creepiness of it) will be tremendously expensive. How do you justify the expense if the children don't want to do it eventually?
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > However, I am not sure how easy it is identify the kids pre-teenage. I'm not sure how the Chinese do it, but this is exactly their approach. Children with talent (or at least some signs of it) are taken at a very young age (~5 y/o) and intensively trained. > Importing a group of people just for the sole purpose of racking up medals (non withstanding the inherent creepiness of it) will be tremendously expensive. How do you justify the expense if the children don't want to do it eventually? Will it be expensive? I made this suggestion based on the assumption that, as with the IT industry, it's more cost efficient to bring in workers from abroad than to depend on domestic talent. In any case, from what I can tell, the main costs come from buying equipment and hiring coaches, not from the children. All you have to do is pay for their food, shelter, schooling, and other basic needs. The children of course will not be forced to remain in the program if they do not want to. Contrary to popular belief, this is the system used by China - no one is kidnapped or coerced into participating, although that no doubt happens in North Korea. In any case, the US policy would be that at any point, they can quit and go back home, if they so desire. Citizenship would be reserved for those who stick with the program until they are of Olympic age (of course, there would be weeding out as well, so the numbers would be relatively low). And even if they end up going back at the age of 10, they would have greatly benefited from just getting nutritious food during a crucial part of their childhood - child malnutrition rates in India are almost 50%, even higher than those in sub-Saharan Africa. Childhood malnutrition leads to lifelong physical and mental infirmity, so the children would no doubt benefit. There's no denying the creepiness to some people, although I don't see it that way (America is a nation of immigrants who came for a better life, and that would describe these kids perfectly). This would be a cost-efficient and humane way to reassert US Olympic dominance over China, something that a lot of people are concerned with.

manojlds 14y ago

While the article is true, it misses the point that the games and sports that India does excel in, do not feature in the Olympics. Cricket, kabadi, kho kho, chess etc. I am really surprised that GB did not make an effort to have T20 Cricket in Olympics, as that format is much more amenable to Olympics and arguably, more popular with today's spectators. Another point that is missed is the Indian diet. A large portion of the population is vegetarian ( and not all kinds of meat are eaten ). And Indians are foodies that like to eat spicy, oily food etc.

eshvk 14y ago
> Another point that is missed is the Indian diet. A large portion of the population is vegetarian ( and not all kinds of meat are eaten ). Could you clarify further what proportion of the population is vegetarian? Surely, there are high protein vegetarian diets (say something concentrated in Whey) that athletes could do? > And Indians are foodies that like to eat spicy, oily food etc. Not sure how this is relevant. Assuming that there is a inherent cultural bias towards spicy food, it is not that difficult for a competitive athlete to go on a stricter regime while working towards victory.

spitx 14y ago

Despite the in-vogue arguments that come with sparse evidence to support that a vegetarian diet can indeed match the athletic predisposition and performance of a non-vegetarian one, I find it highly suspect that regions of the world ( including India ) which have had to rely exclusively on plant protein for hundreds of generations would yield the same athleticism predisposition rates as regions that haven't had such a constraint. Consistently high preponderance in vegetarianism (in India) has to share some of the blame for a lack luster interest in athleticism and athletic activities. There is simply no other very large land mass that has a cultural history of very high (and almost exclusive) dependence on plant protein. This does not even begin to tell the tale of the deleterious effects of a diet entirely devoid of testosterone-laden red meat.

anuraj 14y ago

India is an impoverished nation. More than 55% of people are severely malnourished. To top it, the militant brahmanic Hindutva of North India advocates vegetarianism - which equates to further lack of proteins. And the caste system that looks down upon manual labor and subsequent sedentary lifestyle for last 3000 years have made Indians a weak race. To top it corruption and lack of self drive.

hazov 14y ago

Brazil and Mexico suffer from the same problem, they are middle income countries with more than a 100 million people and yet they are not much better than Kenya, and although not a country with much people Israelis are richer than the majority of the world they do not go well in the Olympics either, so money just do not buy a good Olympics performance like the article tried to sell. One thing that can explain is culture, Australia has a culture for competition, for example Australian lifeguards compete in the Surf Life Saving competition in aquatic sports, it's not a coincidence that Australia goes well in aquatic sports in the Olympics, Swimming, Rowing and Sailing are responsible for half their gold medals.

tathagata 14y ago

India is a big country with a huge population. As with many other complex phenomena, there is no one reason which can explain why India is not doing well in sports. My guess is that the country is just going through a trough. Wait for a few more generations and see. In general, as economic forces level the playing field for most countries around the world, the medals tally will start correlating well with the population.

sunjain 14y ago

I would attribute this to the following: 1. As a society, and culturally India historically has not given sufficient importance to physical fitness. So while historically there was great importance given to spiritual and philosophical pursuits(they had universities setup more then thousand years back dedicated to philosophy - Nalanda), the physical/bodily aspect was not only overlooked but considered almost an overhead/obstacle to ultimate goal in life. Even Yoga's birth(in India) was related more to spiritual pursuit. Not surprising to see origins of Chess in India(even though Chess is a sport, but it is mental). And India does reasonably good in Chess even now. 2. Even the food habits, historically, in India are geared more towards supporting this bent towards mental/spiritual aspects than physical. Hence prevalence of vegetrianism. Now vegetarianism can be one of the healthiest lifestyle(there has been known triathletes who are pure vegetarians)...but that requires a well balanced diet - which is not the case for majority in India(for most in India, vegetarian diet has lot of grease and less nutrition). 3. There is a reason why Cricket is the most popular sport in India - it does not require great physical fitness yet you can play it for hours. And cricket does grab a lion share of sporting opportunities in India (and most lucrative). 3. Prevalent thinking still is that sports is waste of time, and you are better of spending that time on studies...hence you will see abundance of Indian American spelling bee champs even here in US, yet you will not see many in athletics 4. Combine that with lack of creativity and focus from Government in India in identifying(and persisting) with a sport which can fetch medals (like Turkey etc)

ck2 14y ago

I wonder how much building their nuclear weapons cost.