4 ms·

> The US values democracy and free speech more than any other country. Trump is destroying democracy and free speech (notably press freedom). Regarding freedo

by holyra 2y ago

> The US values democracy and free speech more than any other country. Trump is destroying democracy and free speech (notably press freedom). Regarding freedom, I don't buy the US vision. The US culture values individual freedom at the expense of the many. From my point of view, freedom is not possible without equality between people. Otherwise, some people impose their will (their freedom) on others. In this sense, regulation is an instrument of freedom.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
> Trump is destroying democracy and free speech (notably press freedom). Can you name specifics? What freedom does the press not have that they had a few months ago? How is there any less democracy now than before? Nothing has changed about the rights of people to vote or publish - if anything these things are getting better by removing wasteful spending propping up one side of the press, stopping illegal immigration, etc. > The US culture values individual freedom at the expense of the many. From my point of view, freedom is not possible without equality between people. It’s an interesting point that I need to think more about. Personally, I still think individual freedom is the only real freedom. The US law is well thought out in limiting individual “rights” in minor ways (like not being able to harm others) while preserving most of it. Those choices let everyone live freely and more equally than any other system.
- immibis 2y ago
  How about those Palestine protestors having their citizenship revoked for expressing their opinion? Supporting Palestine is illegal in Europe too, of course, but they haven't revoked citizenships over it (yet).
  - nradov 2y ago
    No one has had their US citizenship revoked. Some legal permanent residents (not citizens) who have supported terrorist organizations such as Hamas might be deported depending on the outcomes of their court cases. I don't support those actions but let's be clear about what's actually happening. https://www.npr.org/2025/03/10/nx-s1-5323166/arrest-green-card-palestinian-protest https://www.npr.org/2025/03/10/nx-s1-5323166/arrest-green-ca... Generally citizenship can only be revoked from a naturalized US citizen if the government proves some sort of fraud on their application.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Please note that according to the US government, protesting is "supporting Hamas" and therefore valid grounds for denaturalization and deportation.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Expressing their opinion? The protestors literally assaulted Jewish students. They illegally took over property. They prevented people from accessing the classes they pay for. This was an illegal riot and terroristic to any observer. Also no one has their citizenship revoked. People who are immigrants but not yet citizens are getting booted for breaking the law in numerous ways, including supporting sanctioned terrorist groups. It goes well beyond legally protected speech, even for America.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Did the ones that are being denaturalized assault Jewish students, or is it guilt by association?
      - umbra07 2y ago
        Which citizens are being denaturalized?
        immibis 2y ago
        Mahmoud Khalil
        umbra07 2y ago
        Not an American citizen. Denaturalization means stripping a citizen of their citizenship, not revoking a visa or green card.
        filoleg 2y ago
        According to literally every single source, he was a green card holder/permanent resident, not a US citizen.
        immibis 2y ago
        Then I must have mixed up details from two different stories. But he's relevant anyway. Are permanent residents exempt from the first amendment, or is he being deported for something other than his speech?
- holyra 2y ago
  > Can you name specifics? What freedom does the press not have that they had a few months ago? Every week, Trump is threatening the free press that criticizes him. He suspended the Associated Press from acceding to the Oval Office just because they speak about "Gulf of Mexico". He said that that negative cover of his actions should be illegal. > How is there any less democracy now than before? A free press is an important pillar of democracy. By repeatedly threatening or even attacking it, you are attacking the very fabric of democracy. Democracy is not just voting, you have to be informed otherwise you are blind. You must also be educated to make decisions in your own best interest. A true democracy requires that anyone has access to education. Democracy also needs time to make decisions, and to make decisions collectively (at least in a parliamentary way). Trump decides unilaterally by issuing decrees. This is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. Moreover, he decides so quickly that the DOJ cannot ensure that the Constitution and Human rights are respected. Some of Trump's allies even claim that the USA will need him in 2029: they are ambiguously threatening the very existence of an election. Trump is attacking free speech by banning the use of some terms in emails, attacking schools (e.g. Columbia) and threatening companies with DEI programs. I could go on. > if anything these things are getting better by removing wasteful spending Even if it was true, you need time to change something. Otherwise you break lives and companies.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    The AP has no right to participate in a press conference put on by the administration, just like a random person can’t show up. Not only can they be excluded, but there is also no requirement that the administration even do news conferences at all. That doesn’t mean any right of the press has been infringed. As I said, they still can publish whatever they want. > By repeatedly threatening or even attacking it, you are attacking the very fabric of democracy. You’re suggesting that the press is above criticism, and I disagree. I think the press does need to be held accountable when they are biased or spread misinformation or do bad work to chase clicks, for example. But this is different from their rights being infringed. Just like the press can say what they want, with only some exceptions, so can the administration. That seems balanced to me. > Trump decides unilaterally by issuing decrees. This is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. Why is it that executive orders are executive orders under one administration but “decrees” under another? > Moreover, he decides so quickly that the DOJ cannot ensure that the Constitution and Human rights are respected. This isn’t the DOJ’s job. If someone thinks their legal rights are violated by an executive order, they can file a lawsuit and fight it in the courts. There is also no such thing as “ensuring human rights” in American law - there’s just enforcement of the laws passed by Congress and upholding the constitution (which may include ensuring human rights but it might mean something different from what you intend). This is a tangent, but I want to point out that the previous administration was the one who repeatedly violated the constitution - for example when Biden and his appointees would yell at tech companies to pressure them into censoring the public (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mark-zuckerberg-joe-rogan-biden-officials-scream-curse-facebook-rcna187199 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mark-zuckerbe...). That’s literally a violation of the most important right in the US constitution. > Democracy also needs time to make decisions, and to make decisions collectively (at least in a parliamentary way). Democracy did make a decision - to elect Trump. I don’t think democracy requires every single daily decision of the administration to be reviewed - that’s just impractical, and no country does that. The executive branch has the right to do its job. > Trump is attacking free speech by banning the use of some terms in emails, attacking schools (e.g. Columbia) and threatening companies with DEI programs. You’re mixing a few different things here. A president banning things like DEI in their own agencies is legal. A president removing funding for schools who break the law or enable criminals, as was the case in Columbia, is legal. There’s no unlimited right for any school to get free taxpayer money. And as for companies with DEI programs - given that many of those companies break the law by discriminating based on race and gender as part of their DEI programs, they deserve punishment under the law. You framed this as “threatening” them, but I view it as simply holding them accountable.

by holyra 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

> Trump is destroying democracy and free speech (notably press freedom). Can you name specifics? What freedom does the press not have that they had a few months ago? How is there any less democracy now than before? Nothing has changed about the rights of people to vote or publish - if anything these things are getting better by removing wasteful spending propping up one side of the press, stopping illegal immigration, etc. > The US culture values individual freedom at the expense of the many. From my point of view, freedom is not possible without equality between people. It’s an interesting point that I need to think more about. Personally, I still think individual freedom is the only real freedom. The US law is well thought out in limiting individual “rights” in minor ways (like not being able to harm others) while preserving most of it. Those choices let everyone live freely and more equally than any other system.

immibis 2y ago
How about those Palestine protestors having their citizenship revoked for expressing their opinion? Supporting Palestine is illegal in Europe too, of course, but they haven't revoked citizenships over it (yet).
- nradov 2y ago
  No one has had their US citizenship revoked. Some legal permanent residents (not citizens) who have supported terrorist organizations such as Hamas might be deported depending on the outcomes of their court cases. I don't support those actions but let's be clear about what's actually happening. https://www.npr.org/2025/03/10/nx-s1-5323166/arrest-green-card-palestinian-protest https://www.npr.org/2025/03/10/nx-s1-5323166/arrest-green-ca... Generally citizenship can only be revoked from a naturalized US citizen if the government proves some sort of fraud on their application.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Please note that according to the US government, protesting is "supporting Hamas" and therefore valid grounds for denaturalization and deportation.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Expressing their opinion? The protestors literally assaulted Jewish students. They illegally took over property. They prevented people from accessing the classes they pay for. This was an illegal riot and terroristic to any observer. Also no one has their citizenship revoked. People who are immigrants but not yet citizens are getting booted for breaking the law in numerous ways, including supporting sanctioned terrorist groups. It goes well beyond legally protected speech, even for America.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Did the ones that are being denaturalized assault Jewish students, or is it guilt by association?
    - umbra07 2y ago
      Which citizens are being denaturalized?
      - immibis 2y ago
        Mahmoud Khalil
        umbra07 2y ago
        Not an American citizen. Denaturalization means stripping a citizen of their citizenship, not revoking a visa or green card.
        filoleg 2y ago
        According to literally every single source, he was a green card holder/permanent resident, not a US citizen.
        immibis 2y ago
        Then I must have mixed up details from two different stories. But he's relevant anyway. Are permanent residents exempt from the first amendment, or is he being deported for something other than his speech?
holyra 2y ago
> Can you name specifics? What freedom does the press not have that they had a few months ago? Every week, Trump is threatening the free press that criticizes him. He suspended the Associated Press from acceding to the Oval Office just because they speak about "Gulf of Mexico". He said that that negative cover of his actions should be illegal. > How is there any less democracy now than before? A free press is an important pillar of democracy. By repeatedly threatening or even attacking it, you are attacking the very fabric of democracy. Democracy is not just voting, you have to be informed otherwise you are blind. You must also be educated to make decisions in your own best interest. A true democracy requires that anyone has access to education. Democracy also needs time to make decisions, and to make decisions collectively (at least in a parliamentary way). Trump decides unilaterally by issuing decrees. This is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. Moreover, he decides so quickly that the DOJ cannot ensure that the Constitution and Human rights are respected. Some of Trump's allies even claim that the USA will need him in 2029: they are ambiguously threatening the very existence of an election. Trump is attacking free speech by banning the use of some terms in emails, attacking schools (e.g. Columbia) and threatening companies with DEI programs. I could go on. > if anything these things are getting better by removing wasteful spending Even if it was true, you need time to change something. Otherwise you break lives and companies.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  The AP has no right to participate in a press conference put on by the administration, just like a random person can’t show up. Not only can they be excluded, but there is also no requirement that the administration even do news conferences at all. That doesn’t mean any right of the press has been infringed. As I said, they still can publish whatever they want. > By repeatedly threatening or even attacking it, you are attacking the very fabric of democracy. You’re suggesting that the press is above criticism, and I disagree. I think the press does need to be held accountable when they are biased or spread misinformation or do bad work to chase clicks, for example. But this is different from their rights being infringed. Just like the press can say what they want, with only some exceptions, so can the administration. That seems balanced to me. > Trump decides unilaterally by issuing decrees. This is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. Why is it that executive orders are executive orders under one administration but “decrees” under another? > Moreover, he decides so quickly that the DOJ cannot ensure that the Constitution and Human rights are respected. This isn’t the DOJ’s job. If someone thinks their legal rights are violated by an executive order, they can file a lawsuit and fight it in the courts. There is also no such thing as “ensuring human rights” in American law - there’s just enforcement of the laws passed by Congress and upholding the constitution (which may include ensuring human rights but it might mean something different from what you intend). This is a tangent, but I want to point out that the previous administration was the one who repeatedly violated the constitution - for example when Biden and his appointees would yell at tech companies to pressure them into censoring the public (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mark-zuckerberg-joe-rogan-biden-officials-scream-curse-facebook-rcna187199 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mark-zuckerbe...). That’s literally a violation of the most important right in the US constitution. > Democracy also needs time to make decisions, and to make decisions collectively (at least in a parliamentary way). Democracy did make a decision - to elect Trump. I don’t think democracy requires every single daily decision of the administration to be reviewed - that’s just impractical, and no country does that. The executive branch has the right to do its job. > Trump is attacking free speech by banning the use of some terms in emails, attacking schools (e.g. Columbia) and threatening companies with DEI programs. You’re mixing a few different things here. A president banning things like DEI in their own agencies is legal. A president removing funding for schools who break the law or enable criminals, as was the case in Columbia, is legal. There’s no unlimited right for any school to get free taxpayer money. And as for companies with DEI programs - given that many of those companies break the law by discriminating based on race and gender as part of their DEI programs, they deserve punishment under the law. You framed this as “threatening” them, but I view it as simply holding them accountable.