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I upvoted you before I read the last sentence, and then removed my upvote again. The US is a terrible ally, for all the reasons you cite, but unless they someh

I upvoted you before I read the last sentence, and then removed my upvote again. The US is a terrible ally, for all the reasons you cite, but unless they somehow become a democracy, China would be worse in every way.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
geraldhh 2y ago
not to dispute, but the fact that most of our stuff is 'made in china' might play into the public perception of this dynamic more than the political labels attached.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
The parliamentary structure of the invader doesn't matter very much to the invaded. The assessment that the US is more likely to invade another country than china is not ridiculous anymore.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  It very much matters, because it's a reason an invasion happens at all, especially between peer states. https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-3134,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-3134,0...
- derektank 2y ago
  The parliamentary structure does matter actually. There is no way for the president of the US to launch a war of conquest without approval of the US Congress (there are a limited set of military actions the president could authorize under the war powers act or an existing AUMF but they would not merit being described as an invasion). That would require majority support in both houses of Congress, which can barely hold together long enough to pass a spending a bill.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    We'll see I guess and I hope you're right. IMO the simplest and most realistic way to reconcile "democracies don't invade each other" and "the US might do invasions now" is that the US is not a democracy within this model. It certainly still is in a technical sense that is sometimes useful. But by other metrics, like "can the president start an unpopular war with a steadfast former ally" uhhhhh. If the military refuses an elected president's order to invade is it still a democracy?
    - derektank 2y ago
      >If the military refuses an elected president's order to invade is it still a democracy? Yes, because the military can't follow an illegal order, which is what a declaration of war without the approval of Congress would be. The military also can't spend money Congress hasn't authorized, even if the president tells them to.
      - krapp 2y ago
        >Yes, because the military can't follow an illegal order, which is what a declaration of war without the approval of Congress would be. Congress hasn't actually declared a war since World War 2. The President sends troops wherever he likes, whenever he likes, for whatever purpose he likes and Congress rubber-stamps their approval after the fact, and they call it something other than a war. You're correct that the military can't follow illegal orders, but what you're describing as an example of an illegal order is just the way the US military industrial complex works.
        derektank 2y ago
        In every major conflict since the creation of the war powers act became law, an authorization for the use of military force was passed by Congress prior to major combat operations. This was true in the Gulf War, the War in Afghanistan, and the War in Iraq. There were cases where the president invoked the war powers act for short term deployments of forces, which did later result in Congress authorizing additional use of force (e.g. Lebanon), but nothing even close to the scale of invading a stable, sovereign state.
- apwell23 2y ago
  Chinese want revenge on the west for colonizing them. You think they just forgot about 'century of humiliation' and just moved on? naive
- ailef 2y ago
  > The assessment that the US is more likely to invade another country than china is not ridiculous anymore When was it ever?
holyra 2y ago
> The US is a terrible ally, for all the reasons you cite, but unless they somehow become a democracy, China would be worse in every way. I am no longer considering the US as a democracy. From a west perspective, China doesn't want to annex Canada or Greenland.
- kiney 2y ago
  The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states. And I am an EU citizen myself
  - immibis 2y ago
    Explain.
    - kiney 2y ago
      Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states. By what metric? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Ranking * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_indices * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
    - kiney 2y ago
      Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.
immibis 2y ago
Or if the US somehow becomes a dictatorship.
dontlaugh 2y ago
Which country has China invaded lately exactly?
- nradov 2y ago
  In the modern post-WWII era that would be Tibet, Korea, India, USSR, and Vietnam. Maybe also Philippines, depending on what you consider to be an "invasion". Depending on your perspective, China might have had valid reasons for some of those conflicts but regardless of the reasons the fact remains that they at least temporarily invaded territories claimed by numerous other countries. Who's next? https://pca-cpa.org/ar/cases/7/ https://pca-cpa.org/ar/cases/7/
  - dontlaugh 2y ago
    Right, an exceptionally short list of relatively minor instances when compared to the US. Tibet doesn’t count either, it’s been a part of China for centuries and it was the serfs and slaves that sought reunification to escape the monks’ brutal rule.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

geraldhh 2y ago

not to dispute, but the fact that most of our stuff is 'made in china' might play into the public perception of this dynamic more than the political labels attached.

giraffe_lady 2y ago

The parliamentary structure of the invader doesn't matter very much to the invaded. The assessment that the US is more likely to invade another country than china is not ridiculous anymore.

ethbr1 2y ago
It very much matters, because it's a reason an invasion happens at all, especially between peer states. https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-3134,00.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-3134,0...
derektank 2y ago
The parliamentary structure does matter actually. There is no way for the president of the US to launch a war of conquest without approval of the US Congress (there are a limited set of military actions the president could authorize under the war powers act or an existing AUMF but they would not merit being described as an invasion). That would require majority support in both houses of Congress, which can barely hold together long enough to pass a spending a bill.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  We'll see I guess and I hope you're right. IMO the simplest and most realistic way to reconcile "democracies don't invade each other" and "the US might do invasions now" is that the US is not a democracy within this model. It certainly still is in a technical sense that is sometimes useful. But by other metrics, like "can the president start an unpopular war with a steadfast former ally" uhhhhh. If the military refuses an elected president's order to invade is it still a democracy?
  - derektank 2y ago
    >If the military refuses an elected president's order to invade is it still a democracy? Yes, because the military can't follow an illegal order, which is what a declaration of war without the approval of Congress would be. The military also can't spend money Congress hasn't authorized, even if the president tells them to.
    - krapp 2y ago
      >Yes, because the military can't follow an illegal order, which is what a declaration of war without the approval of Congress would be. Congress hasn't actually declared a war since World War 2. The President sends troops wherever he likes, whenever he likes, for whatever purpose he likes and Congress rubber-stamps their approval after the fact, and they call it something other than a war. You're correct that the military can't follow illegal orders, but what you're describing as an example of an illegal order is just the way the US military industrial complex works.
      - derektank 2y ago
        In every major conflict since the creation of the war powers act became law, an authorization for the use of military force was passed by Congress prior to major combat operations. This was true in the Gulf War, the War in Afghanistan, and the War in Iraq. There were cases where the president invoked the war powers act for short term deployments of forces, which did later result in Congress authorizing additional use of force (e.g. Lebanon), but nothing even close to the scale of invading a stable, sovereign state.
apwell23 2y ago
Chinese want revenge on the west for colonizing them. You think they just forgot about 'century of humiliation' and just moved on? naive
ailef 2y ago
> The assessment that the US is more likely to invade another country than china is not ridiculous anymore When was it ever?

holyra 2y ago

> The US is a terrible ally, for all the reasons you cite, but unless they somehow become a democracy, China would be worse in every way. I am no longer considering the US as a democracy. From a west perspective, China doesn't want to annex Canada or Greenland.

kiney 2y ago
The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states. And I am an EU citizen myself
- immibis 2y ago
  Explain.
  - kiney 2y ago
    Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states. By what metric? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Ranking * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_indices * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
  - kiney 2y ago
    Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.

immibis 2y ago

Or if the US somehow becomes a dictatorship.

dontlaugh 2y ago

Which country has China invaded lately exactly?

nradov 2y ago
In the modern post-WWII era that would be Tibet, Korea, India, USSR, and Vietnam. Maybe also Philippines, depending on what you consider to be an "invasion". Depending on your perspective, China might have had valid reasons for some of those conflicts but regardless of the reasons the fact remains that they at least temporarily invaded territories claimed by numerous other countries. Who's next? https://pca-cpa.org/ar/cases/7/ https://pca-cpa.org/ar/cases/7/
- dontlaugh 2y ago
  Right, an exceptionally short list of relatively minor instances when compared to the US. Tibet doesn’t count either, it’s been a part of China for centuries and it was the serfs and slaves that sought reunification to escape the monks’ brutal rule.