5 ms·

Tesla post 2020 is an interesting experiment in automaking. I'm fairly convinced that if the US wouldn't protect it's internal markets so much, both Apple and

by oblio 2y ago

Tesla post 2020 is an interesting experiment in automaking. I'm fairly convinced that if the US wouldn't protect it's internal markets so much, both Apple and Tesla would probably be gone in maximum 10 years. Maybe not gone as much as greatly diminished.

poincaredisk 2y ago
I get Tesla, it's a controversial company, but Apple?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Tesla would be dead in the water actually because its products are shit compared to what’s available today. They had a massive lead where a sub-Corolla quality build could sell for $60k+ because EV, and squandered it.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    Corolla is pretty good.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      It’s excellent for its price point! Not so much for the $75-$120k Tesla price tag.
      - wqaatwt 2y ago
        Isn’t Tesla’s price point closer to $40-50k though?
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Not the Model S, which was the "early lead" that they squandered
- oblio 2y ago
  How many Chinese phone brands do you see sold in the US (Apple stronghold)? Go in the rest of the world in a phone shop and check out what they have in display (Xiaomi, Huawei, Oppo, etc). https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/smartphone-market-share https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/smartphone-market-share And this with none of those companies selling in the US (I imagine due to legal reasons such as tariffs or related).
immibis 2y ago
Allegedly, the Cybertruck is the first car Musk was involved in designing. All the previous Tesla models were variants of the designs produced before Musk bought the company.
- FrojoS 2y ago
  Wrong. The first Tesla, the Roadster, was an existing design by Lotus [1]. All Tesla designs since, including the Cybertruck, have been led by Franz von Holzhausen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generati... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen
  - milesrout 2y ago
    It was not an existing design by Lotus at all. It used the Lotus chassis but that is one small part of the overall vehicle.
  - immibis 2y ago
    This neither confirms nor denies that the Cybertruck was the first one Musk designed.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  Later than it was supposed to be. More expensive than it was supposed to be. Not as much range as it was supposed to have. Not the exoskeleton design it was said to be. Not bulletproof like it was claimed to be. The whole thing is a pile of engineering WTF. The enormous wiper that leaves a huge amount of the windshield untouched, when it manages to work at all. The wheel support structures from other Tesla models being reused in a much heavier vehicle, leading to all those photos we've seen of Cybertrucks with snapped off wheels. The headlight "shelf" that collects snow and blocks the headlights. The air suspension system that takes forever to adjust when it's not failing altogether. The glue, oh the glue, so much glue. It's just so uniquely bad!
  - 2y ago
baxtr 2y ago
Re Apple: How is the US protecting its market against other smartphone manufacturers?
- guappa 2y ago
  Check how many people have iphones in europe compared to usa
  - milesrout 2y ago
    That is because iPhones are better and the US is much richer than Europe on average.
    - jakupovic 2y ago
      Thanks for your opinion. Oh forgot, lol. Markets are efficient and if the Europeans and rest of the world are not married to a US company(Apple) that doesn't mean the other product is inferior, the Samsung phone for example.
      - drstewart 2y ago
        Now explain why iPhone is more popular in Denmark, Norway, Monaco, Andorra, Iceland, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland than they are even in the US. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-market-share-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-ma... Efficient markets at work, right?
        guappa 2y ago
        Because markets aren't efficient. Certainly it's not income related; compare germany and lithuania, or italy and albania.
        wqaatwt 2y ago
        It might be more popular in those countries but backing these claims using random maps that are clearly incorrect doesn’t really do much to strengthen your argument.
ben_w 2y ago
Tesla is on paper 20x overvalued even against other American car manufacturers like Ford (Tesla P/E ~120, Ford ~6), and I don't see many American cars being highly competitive against Chinese brands whose premium range starts around where American brands put their budget range. Apple, not so clear. Always expensive, but in the sense of only having a premium range and not catering to budget markets, they're priced like premium Android phones. While I see legal and political risks to Apple, I don't see market risks.
- smcl 2y ago
  Whenever I talked about this with Tesla fans they kept parroting this line about Tesla being "a battery company that also makes cars" or similar. I can understand that this (having some non-car products and a charging network) grants them an advantage of sorts, but they're by far and away the most valuable company by market cap, while having a fraction of the sales of companies like Toyota, GM, Honda etc. It's like the market is expecting Tesla to explode in sales in the coming years and I can't see it, not just because people are turning on Elon Musk but because I don't know if they can even build enough cars to meet that expected valuation if that demand was actually there.
  - nprateem 2y ago
    People who can't think for themselves will happily parrot anything they've heard to mask their ignorance.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Moving to a new country with a different national language has given me a direct personal appreciation for what Dunning Kruger feels like from the inside. Some may parrot for tribal reasons, but there's a huge number who have a superficial knowledge and it simply doesn't occur to them how deep their ignorance is — tribalism is one way critics are equal to fans in Musk's case (and not just that Musk's fans are parroting his shallow criticisms of everyone else), but the DK part applies to all of us. Even me pointing at P/E ratios here is merely one step up the ladder from looking at the share price, it's not a deep analysis, just a santiy check.
belter 2y ago
Even the most fanatic Tesla fanbois, have given up on trying to justify anymore the absurd valuation as a car company.... They are always watching forwards.... :-) Now it's all about the value of the non existing...but coming soon robotics...And coming soon... but non existing, self-driving taxis. Watch and see, how rational adults, can dream on while totally awake: https://youtu.be/HTesFrD7_Zw?t=18 https://youtu.be/HTesFrD7_Zw?t=18
api 2y ago
Apple, I think, would lose market share but would live. It would probably make them better since it would be a nice boot in the ass. But their products are at least good, if a bit overpriced and with more rough spots than some will admit. Tesla would be dead the instant BYD hit the US shore. Total death. Like chapter 11 and fire sale.

by oblio 2y ago

poincaredisk 2y ago

I get Tesla, it's a controversial company, but Apple?

llamaimperative 2y ago
Tesla would be dead in the water actually because its products are shit compared to what’s available today. They had a massive lead where a sub-Corolla quality build could sell for $60k+ because EV, and squandered it.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Corolla is pretty good.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    It’s excellent for its price point! Not so much for the $75-$120k Tesla price tag.
    - wqaatwt 2y ago
      Isn’t Tesla’s price point closer to $40-50k though?
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Not the Model S, which was the "early lead" that they squandered
oblio 2y ago
How many Chinese phone brands do you see sold in the US (Apple stronghold)? Go in the rest of the world in a phone shop and check out what they have in display (Xiaomi, Huawei, Oppo, etc). https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/smartphone-market-share https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/smartphone-market-share And this with none of those companies selling in the US (I imagine due to legal reasons such as tariffs or related).

immibis 2y ago

Allegedly, the Cybertruck is the first car Musk was involved in designing. All the previous Tesla models were variants of the designs produced before Musk bought the company.

FrojoS 2y ago
Wrong. The first Tesla, the Roadster, was an existing design by Lotus [1]. All Tesla designs since, including the Cybertruck, have been led by Franz von Holzhausen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generati... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen
- milesrout 2y ago
  It was not an existing design by Lotus at all. It used the Lotus chassis but that is one small part of the overall vehicle.
- immibis 2y ago
  This neither confirms nor denies that the Cybertruck was the first one Musk designed.
sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
Later than it was supposed to be. More expensive than it was supposed to be. Not as much range as it was supposed to have. Not the exoskeleton design it was said to be. Not bulletproof like it was claimed to be. The whole thing is a pile of engineering WTF. The enormous wiper that leaves a huge amount of the windshield untouched, when it manages to work at all. The wheel support structures from other Tesla models being reused in a much heavier vehicle, leading to all those photos we've seen of Cybertrucks with snapped off wheels. The headlight "shelf" that collects snow and blocks the headlights. The air suspension system that takes forever to adjust when it's not failing altogether. The glue, oh the glue, so much glue. It's just so uniquely bad!
- 2y ago

baxtr 2y ago

Re Apple: How is the US protecting its market against other smartphone manufacturers?

guappa 2y ago
Check how many people have iphones in europe compared to usa
- milesrout 2y ago
  That is because iPhones are better and the US is much richer than Europe on average.
  - jakupovic 2y ago
    Thanks for your opinion. Oh forgot, lol. Markets are efficient and if the Europeans and rest of the world are not married to a US company(Apple) that doesn't mean the other product is inferior, the Samsung phone for example.
    - drstewart 2y ago
      Now explain why iPhone is more popular in Denmark, Norway, Monaco, Andorra, Iceland, Sweden, Japan, Switzerland than they are even in the US. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-market-share-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-ma... Efficient markets at work, right?
      - guappa 2y ago
        Because markets aren't efficient. Certainly it's not income related; compare germany and lithuania, or italy and albania.
      - wqaatwt 2y ago
        It might be more popular in those countries but backing these claims using random maps that are clearly incorrect doesn’t really do much to strengthen your argument.

ben_w 2y ago

Tesla is on paper 20x overvalued even against other American car manufacturers like Ford (Tesla P/E ~120, Ford ~6), and I don't see many American cars being highly competitive against Chinese brands whose premium range starts around where American brands put their budget range. Apple, not so clear. Always expensive, but in the sense of only having a premium range and not catering to budget markets, they're priced like premium Android phones. While I see legal and political risks to Apple, I don't see market risks.

smcl 2y ago
Whenever I talked about this with Tesla fans they kept parroting this line about Tesla being "a battery company that also makes cars" or similar. I can understand that this (having some non-car products and a charging network) grants them an advantage of sorts, but they're by far and away the most valuable company by market cap, while having a fraction of the sales of companies like Toyota, GM, Honda etc. It's like the market is expecting Tesla to explode in sales in the coming years and I can't see it, not just because people are turning on Elon Musk but because I don't know if they can even build enough cars to meet that expected valuation if that demand was actually there.
- nprateem 2y ago
  People who can't think for themselves will happily parrot anything they've heard to mask their ignorance.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Moving to a new country with a different national language has given me a direct personal appreciation for what Dunning Kruger feels like from the inside. Some may parrot for tribal reasons, but there's a huge number who have a superficial knowledge and it simply doesn't occur to them how deep their ignorance is — tribalism is one way critics are equal to fans in Musk's case (and not just that Musk's fans are parroting his shallow criticisms of everyone else), but the DK part applies to all of us. Even me pointing at P/E ratios here is merely one step up the ladder from looking at the share price, it's not a deep analysis, just a santiy check.

belter 2y ago

Even the most fanatic Tesla fanbois, have given up on trying to justify anymore the absurd valuation as a car company.... They are always watching forwards.... :-) Now it's all about the value of the non existing...but coming soon robotics...And coming soon... but non existing, self-driving taxis. Watch and see, how rational adults, can dream on while totally awake: https://youtu.be/HTesFrD7_Zw?t=18 https://youtu.be/HTesFrD7_Zw?t=18

api 2y ago

Apple, I think, would lose market share but would live. It would probably make them better since it would be a nice boot in the ass. But their products are at least good, if a bit overpriced and with more rough spots than some will admit. Tesla would be dead the instant BYD hit the US shore. Total death. Like chapter 11 and fire sale.