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Two questions: 1. Have you considered building a “microgrid interconnection device” to go with this to allow the batteries to backfeed a house in the event of

by amluto 2y ago

Two questions: 1. Have you considered building a “microgrid interconnection device” to go with this to allow the batteries to backfeed a house in the event of an outage? (This would require native 240V split-phase capability and/or an auto-transformer.) 2. Have you considered removing the fade-in-when-scrolling abomination on your website?

coleashman 2y ago
1. I'm actually hopeful we see a generic MID standard emerge with folks like ConnectDER well positioned to support that, so more homes can benefit and households can gain the ability to flexibly try different batteries without ripping out their panels every time. If not, we could definitely build our own (helped build 2 generations of Tesla's MID as well as 3 generations of SPAN Panels with MID functionality). Happy to nerd out on the topic anytime :) 2. Feedback taken hah
- jaggederest 2y ago
  MID = Microgrid Interconnect Device ? DER = Distributed Energy Resource ? SPAN = an energy device company https://www.span.io/ https://www.span.io/ ? Just had to check the definition of some acronyms and thought others might find the results helpful inline.
  - chadconway 2y ago
    Correct, Thanks!
- amluto 2y ago
  Huh, I hadn’t seen ConnectDER before. That’s cute. It’s not entirely clear to me how it interacts with power sources in the house, and it’s also not clear to me whether it’s standardized enough so that a different MID could be used in its place with the same inverters/batteries/whatever. I would love to see the industry standardize on a MID protocol well enough for applications like V2H/V2G to work without absurd levels of vendor lock-in. I suppose another potential issue would be exceeding the capacity of a panel bus. Balcony solar has the same problem, and I guess no one os likely to connect enough balcony solar units to cause a real problem.
  - VectorLock 2y ago
    I've seen this "meter plug piggy back vampire tap" scheme used for EV chargers, looks cool to use it for grid tie generators too.
    - chadconway 2y ago
      Tesla offers the Backup Switch which is a Meter Socket Adapter(MSA) like ConnectDER.
  - chadconway 2y ago
    I agree we need a universal option for both home batteries & V2H. ConnectDER is working to be that standard. Tesla’s Backup Switch was supposed to be open, but unfortunately hasn’t been opened for others to integrate with.
    - amluto 2y ago
      Whatever design wins should also be available as a standalone device (maybe even something that can be installed inside an existing enclosure if there’s room and maybe even in a circuit breaker format) and not just a meter ring adapter. There are users who, for various reasons, cannot use meter ring adapters as switches. For example: - Some services cannot be switched at the meter ring. This includes services that use a current transformer separate from the meter. (As far as I know, this includes all services over “Class 320”.) - Some apartments aren’t separately metered. Fortunately, this is rare. - Some users will want to back up only part of a service.
linsomniac 2y ago
1: And of course some sort of isolation of the house from the grid when it's back-feeding.
- coleashman 2y ago
  Yep, and to clarify Pila includes an MID onboard so while Intentionally Islanded there is no backfeed. But in terms of a whole-home disconnect, I believe we'll see more generic options appear that are somewhat DER-agnostic.
  - VectorLock 2y ago
    >Pila includes an MID onboard How does that work? Is just not putting energy out the input "plug" count as a MID?
    - chadconway 2y ago
      The Tesla MID is in the Tesla Gateway or Backup Switch meter socket adapter. The Pila MID is onboard inside the battery. Pila can push power back through the plug. When utility power drops, Pila & Powerwall react exactly the same. They both detect the outage, open the MID, and power load downstream of the MID. In the case of Pila it powers loads downstream / plugged into Pila.
      - nikau 2y ago
        Im having trouble understanding this, if you back feed into a circuit why wouldn't it go out via the beaker and onto the power grid?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
rtkwe 2y ago
1) Can't be automated without a failover switch to disconnect the house from the grid so it doesn't back feed into the actual power lines outside the house and either break or risk injuring linemen who think a line has been disconnected and isolated. In addition to that you're feeding energy back in through a much smaller wire so you're limited to the capability of the circuit it's connected to and the devices have to be smart enough to actually limit their output to what the wall can handle. Otherwise imagine you have 2 of these each on 1000W circuits (not a normal circuit but for convenience lets pretend) and you have 1500W of load running elsewhere in the house. One runs out of power because it had a lower charge state when power failed, now unless the remaining UPS limits it's output and browns out everything you're pulling 150% the rated power of your circuit, potentially damaging the wires or the loads you're powering. This is potentially what's causing fires on nVidia's high power connectors, one connection wears out or is simply loose so more power flows through the remaining pins and it's too much for those wires causing fires/melting the wires.
- TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
  Feed power in through one circuit back to the main board, on a different circuit cause a short, main breaker trips, main board is now isolated from the grid. Technically possible, irresponsible, bad advice, and probably won’t work in most scenarios.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    This is why we have regulations.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    Doesn't work and would likely cause fires. First the smaller circuits will trip first, that's where the current is actually flowing, there wouldn't be any actually flowing through the whole house breaker in your idea. The main circuit to your house is 100+ Amps (this would be a tiny old circuit most houses have larger main feeds these days) at least. You'd have to feed at that much through the main disconnect for it to trip. Second even if you could push that many amps through the main breaker somehow to trip it you'd be feeding it through wires designed for 15-20 amp nominal loads which would cook them.
chadconway 2y ago
Pila team designed the Powerwall & SPAN microgrid interconnect device (MID) / relay that disconnect the home from the grid. So we could, but we believe the value to be the 0 install cost. Installing an MID can cost anywhere from $2500-15,000 depending on complexity.

by amluto 2y ago

coleashman 2y ago

1. I'm actually hopeful we see a generic MID standard emerge with folks like ConnectDER well positioned to support that, so more homes can benefit and households can gain the ability to flexibly try different batteries without ripping out their panels every time. If not, we could definitely build our own (helped build 2 generations of Tesla's MID as well as 3 generations of SPAN Panels with MID functionality). Happy to nerd out on the topic anytime :) 2. Feedback taken hah

jaggederest 2y ago
MID = Microgrid Interconnect Device ? DER = Distributed Energy Resource ? SPAN = an energy device company https://www.span.io/ https://www.span.io/ ? Just had to check the definition of some acronyms and thought others might find the results helpful inline.
- chadconway 2y ago
  Correct, Thanks!
amluto 2y ago
Huh, I hadn’t seen ConnectDER before. That’s cute. It’s not entirely clear to me how it interacts with power sources in the house, and it’s also not clear to me whether it’s standardized enough so that a different MID could be used in its place with the same inverters/batteries/whatever. I would love to see the industry standardize on a MID protocol well enough for applications like V2H/V2G to work without absurd levels of vendor lock-in. I suppose another potential issue would be exceeding the capacity of a panel bus. Balcony solar has the same problem, and I guess no one os likely to connect enough balcony solar units to cause a real problem.
- VectorLock 2y ago
  I've seen this "meter plug piggy back vampire tap" scheme used for EV chargers, looks cool to use it for grid tie generators too.
  - chadconway 2y ago
    Tesla offers the Backup Switch which is a Meter Socket Adapter(MSA) like ConnectDER.
- chadconway 2y ago
  I agree we need a universal option for both home batteries & V2H. ConnectDER is working to be that standard. Tesla’s Backup Switch was supposed to be open, but unfortunately hasn’t been opened for others to integrate with.
  - amluto 2y ago
    Whatever design wins should also be available as a standalone device (maybe even something that can be installed inside an existing enclosure if there’s room and maybe even in a circuit breaker format) and not just a meter ring adapter. There are users who, for various reasons, cannot use meter ring adapters as switches. For example: - Some services cannot be switched at the meter ring. This includes services that use a current transformer separate from the meter. (As far as I know, this includes all services over “Class 320”.) - Some apartments aren’t separately metered. Fortunately, this is rare. - Some users will want to back up only part of a service.

linsomniac 2y ago

1: And of course some sort of isolation of the house from the grid when it's back-feeding.

coleashman 2y ago
Yep, and to clarify Pila includes an MID onboard so while Intentionally Islanded there is no backfeed. But in terms of a whole-home disconnect, I believe we'll see more generic options appear that are somewhat DER-agnostic.
- VectorLock 2y ago
  >Pila includes an MID onboard How does that work? Is just not putting energy out the input "plug" count as a MID?
  - chadconway 2y ago
    The Tesla MID is in the Tesla Gateway or Backup Switch meter socket adapter. The Pila MID is onboard inside the battery. Pila can push power back through the plug. When utility power drops, Pila & Powerwall react exactly the same. They both detect the outage, open the MID, and power load downstream of the MID. In the case of Pila it powers loads downstream / plugged into Pila.
    - nikau 2y ago
      Im having trouble understanding this, if you back feed into a circuit why wouldn't it go out via the beaker and onto the power grid?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

rtkwe 2y ago

1) Can't be automated without a failover switch to disconnect the house from the grid so it doesn't back feed into the actual power lines outside the house and either break or risk injuring linemen who think a line has been disconnected and isolated. In addition to that you're feeding energy back in through a much smaller wire so you're limited to the capability of the circuit it's connected to and the devices have to be smart enough to actually limit their output to what the wall can handle. Otherwise imagine you have 2 of these each on 1000W circuits (not a normal circuit but for convenience lets pretend) and you have 1500W of load running elsewhere in the house. One runs out of power because it had a lower charge state when power failed, now unless the remaining UPS limits it's output and browns out everything you're pulling 150% the rated power of your circuit, potentially damaging the wires or the loads you're powering. This is potentially what's causing fires on nVidia's high power connectors, one connection wears out or is simply loose so more power flows through the remaining pins and it's too much for those wires causing fires/melting the wires.

TheSpiceIsLife 2y ago
Feed power in through one circuit back to the main board, on a different circuit cause a short, main breaker trips, main board is now isolated from the grid. Technically possible, irresponsible, bad advice, and probably won’t work in most scenarios.
- mulmen 2y ago
  This is why we have regulations.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Doesn't work and would likely cause fires. First the smaller circuits will trip first, that's where the current is actually flowing, there wouldn't be any actually flowing through the whole house breaker in your idea. The main circuit to your house is 100+ Amps (this would be a tiny old circuit most houses have larger main feeds these days) at least. You'd have to feed at that much through the main disconnect for it to trip. Second even if you could push that many amps through the main breaker somehow to trip it you'd be feeding it through wires designed for 15-20 amp nominal loads which would cook them.

chadconway 2y ago

Pila team designed the Powerwall & SPAN microgrid interconnect device (MID) / relay that disconnect the home from the grid. So we could, but we believe the value to be the 0 install cost. Installing an MID can cost anywhere from $2500-15,000 depending on complexity.