8 ms·

The city that forgot itself

37 points by anarbadalov 2y ago

imsurajkadam 2y ago
Why dont they use the simple english to understand?
- noduerme 2y ago
  English is a very beautiful language. There are many ways to say something similar, but each have slightly different meanings. In this case, the writer decided to use "flowery" language, which is usually to create a detailed picture, smell, and feeling for the reader. The point is not only to convey facts but to convey a sense of place. That is the reason for the complicated language. For example, it says: "A woman in her forties sits on a bench, fixing the shrine with her gaze." This means that the woman sits on a bench looking at the shrine. But "fixing" it "with her gaze" means that she is staring at it with deep meaning and (possibly) reverence.
  - assimpleaspossi 2y ago
    To me that says her gaze is fixing the shrine.
    - dambi0 2y ago
      What meaning do you infer from what it says?
      - marky1991 2y ago
        I legitimately would have to guess what they meant. The obvious reading to me is that she is magically repairing it by looking at it, though I would know that's not what they meant, which leaves brute force guessing. You can say that someone is 'fixed on' something, which means to look doggedly, but 'fixing something' is totally different, who says that? Subjective of course, but I just think it's a bad sentence.
        0xEF 2y ago
        > who says that? People who watch US TV shows about the American South. Having lived there for awhile and still travel there for work today, I can say with some certainty that the folksy dialect that media gives to people of that region is either largely embellished or made-up. If we stay on the word "fix," I mostly hear it in context of someone making a meal ("Fixing breakfast," etc). The Appalachian regions are must more creative and cant-like with the language historically, but even that is being lost as the generations are exposed to more modern settings, I think. In my experience, the idioms used usually come down to the individual, which has more to do with how their sense of identity was cultivated, a concept that runs quite deep in the American South, but that is a much longer and more complex thread for another day, I reckon.
        marky1991 2y ago
        "("Fixing breakfast," etc)." Yes, this makes sense, you can fix ('make', off the top of my head, only used in this sense for cooking really) breakfast, but surely the author doesn't mean the woman was materializing/cooking a shrine as a dish with her eyes either.
        genghisjahn 2y ago
        In Texas we’d say things like “I’m fixing to go over yonder.” Meaning “I’m about to go over there.”
        mock-possum 2y ago
        No, it’s “fix” in the sense of “fix in place” - to pin something to one spot. “I can’t move the table, it’s fixed in place.” Her gaze is fixed upon - her gaze is fixing. Within her field of view, her deliberate staring at the shrine has fixed it in place. Her eyes are fixed in place, focused on the shrine. ‘In place’ is implied by the context.
        Someone 2y ago
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix: to direct one's attention or efforts : FOCUS also : DECIDE, SETTLE —usually used with on had fixed on the first Saturday in June All eyes fixed on her as she entered the room.
      - Galatians4_16 2y ago
        Depends on the correct spelling of gaze.
      - bmacho 2y ago
        What it means. The most annoying about that quote is that it is a correct sentence, with one single trivial meaning. Easy right? Your favorite type of sentence. Well guess what, in the text it stands for a totally different thing (without any particular reason or benefit). I much prefer GP's broken sentence. It is syntactically broken, but it has all the words, much better than if it was syntactically correct with an entirely different meaning than the intended one.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      Exactly, and "fixing" in this sense means "nailing to the spot", or "fastening upon, halt, stop moving, be immobile like a fixed point or fixed price". It's a poetic expression.
  - bmacho 2y ago
    > For example, it says: "A woman in her forties sits on a bench, fixing the shrine with her gaze." This particular example I don't think is poetic rather it is broken.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      > I don't think is poetic rather it is broken. No, it is not. You are merely unfamiliar with this sentence construction. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-gaze-on https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-g... https://dictionary.cambridge.org/thesaurus/fix-one-s-gaze https://dictionary.cambridge.org/thesaurus/fix-one-s-gaze https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fix+his+with+a+gaze https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fix+his+with+a+gaze
      - bmacho 2y ago
        Collins and Cambridge don't know about it (despite Cambridge having one of the best and largest corpus of spoken and written English). Thefreedictionary I don't accept as reliable. Seems like this proves my point tbh.
        smcin 2y ago
        GP post cites Collins defining "fix a gaze on"! https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-gaze-on https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-g... Yes Collins knows about it. Even this lesser-known site knows about it: https://texttospeech.io/thesaurus/gaze https://texttospeech.io/thesaurus/gaze > Definition of gaze: (n): a long fixed look; "he fixed his paternal gaze on me"
        bmacho 2y ago
        We are talking about 'fixing smth with a gaze' and not 'fixing gaze on smth'. The verb, the object and the subject are different.
        2y ago
- xyzsparetimexyz 2y ago
  That's a broken sentence.
  - dambi0 2y ago
    Broken seems a bit harsh. It might not be idiomatic, it might fall foul of some grammatical standard. But you know what it means.
    - xyzsparetimexyz 2y ago
      No, I do not! It is absolutely derived of context.
      - nindalf 2y ago
        Kinda like how I understood what you meant here ("absolutely devoid of context") in spite of your error ("derived of context"). Sometimes we need to make an effort to understand. I wouldn't make you feel bad by saying "that's a broken sentence! I can't understand it!"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  It is not an informative article, it's a piece designed to convey emotions and sentiments so readers are more willing to embrace author's view.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    There seems to be an agenda there. If you check wikipedia at least, the muslim-christian population exchange between Greece and Turkey wasn't quite like the article describes it. The facts may be somewhere in the middle, but certainly not in this article.
    - KineticLensman 2y ago
      FWIW The Critic is associated with the British conservative movement so there is definitely a leaning to the political right (This is a comment on the magazine that published TFA, not TFA itself)
    - Texasian 2y ago
      You say that as if it’s a bad thing. Not all writing needs to be as dry as a technical bulletin.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - nottorp 2y ago
        That’s how you do a proper propaganda piece, you write an emotional article that is mostly correct and insert subtle nudges to your actual topic :)
    - nindalf 2y ago
      Could you describe how the muslim-christian population exchange actually happened? What is the agenda of this piece?
      - nottorp 2y ago
- Galatians4_16 2y ago
  Be glad it's not Pidgin.
- type0 2y ago
  Here you go: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki
jhbadger 2y ago
While I haven't been there, I know of it from Alan Furst's novels (which I recommend) -- he writes novels set before and during WWII and likes to often set them in places like Thessaloniki/Salonika in Greece and Trieste in Italy -- places which were on the border between two (or more) cultures and which lost a lot of their multicultural status due to the war.
- TMWNN 2y ago
  >places like Thessaloniki/Salonika in Greece and Trieste in Italy -- places which were on the border between two (or more) cultures and which lost a lot of their multicultural status due to the war "European borders aren't drawn along ethnic lines, the ethnic lines are drawn along the borders." —/u/sora_mui, two days ago <https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1j86d8i/the_balkanization_plan_of_the_free_nations_of/mh43dm6/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1j86d8i/the_balkani...>
mikhailfranco 2y ago
It is contemporarily relevant to look at the euphemistic 'exchange of populations' during and after the Greco-Turkish War. Today it would be called 'ethnic cleansing'. In Anatolia itself, it took the form of genocide. The Turks had recently executed the Armenian and Assyrian (Sayfo) genocides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Gr... Most vividly, it was covered by journalist Ernest Hemingway for the Toronto Star: A Silent, Ghastly Procession Wends Its Way from Thrace (20 Oct 1922) Refugee Procession is Scene of Horror (14 Nov 1922) But he also put his experiences into fiction, especially "On The Quai At Smyrna", describing the tragic murderous evacuation of Greeks from (what is now) Izmir, Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Quai_at_Smyrna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Quai_at_Smyrna Some telling quotes here: https://www.neomagazine.com/2022/04/on-the-quay-at-smyrna-ernest-hemingway-and-1922/ https://www.neomagazine.com/2022/04/on-the-quay-at-smyrna-er... You can find these works in many collections of his journalism and short stories (e.g. "Byline"). I am very glad his early work is now coming out of copyright (and the journalism in Canada too? - if someone has links to his original articles, please post them). Here is an out-of-copyright paragraph of "In Our Time", which recollects the refugee columns passing through Thrace, to and from Salonika, in 1922: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61085/pg61085-images.html#CH3 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61085/pg61085-images.ht... There are similar scenes in our world today. Not being played out today, but really happening.

37 points by anarbadalov 2y ago

imsurajkadam 2y ago

Why dont they use the simple english to understand?

noduerme 2y ago
English is a very beautiful language. There are many ways to say something similar, but each have slightly different meanings. In this case, the writer decided to use "flowery" language, which is usually to create a detailed picture, smell, and feeling for the reader. The point is not only to convey facts but to convey a sense of place. That is the reason for the complicated language. For example, it says: "A woman in her forties sits on a bench, fixing the shrine with her gaze." This means that the woman sits on a bench looking at the shrine. But "fixing" it "with her gaze" means that she is staring at it with deep meaning and (possibly) reverence.
- assimpleaspossi 2y ago
  To me that says her gaze is fixing the shrine.
  - dambi0 2y ago
    What meaning do you infer from what it says?
    - marky1991 2y ago
      I legitimately would have to guess what they meant. The obvious reading to me is that she is magically repairing it by looking at it, though I would know that's not what they meant, which leaves brute force guessing. You can say that someone is 'fixed on' something, which means to look doggedly, but 'fixing something' is totally different, who says that? Subjective of course, but I just think it's a bad sentence.
      - 0xEF 2y ago
        > who says that? People who watch US TV shows about the American South. Having lived there for awhile and still travel there for work today, I can say with some certainty that the folksy dialect that media gives to people of that region is either largely embellished or made-up. If we stay on the word "fix," I mostly hear it in context of someone making a meal ("Fixing breakfast," etc). The Appalachian regions are must more creative and cant-like with the language historically, but even that is being lost as the generations are exposed to more modern settings, I think. In my experience, the idioms used usually come down to the individual, which has more to do with how their sense of identity was cultivated, a concept that runs quite deep in the American South, but that is a much longer and more complex thread for another day, I reckon.
        marky1991 2y ago
        "("Fixing breakfast," etc)." Yes, this makes sense, you can fix ('make', off the top of my head, only used in this sense for cooking really) breakfast, but surely the author doesn't mean the woman was materializing/cooking a shrine as a dish with her eyes either.
        genghisjahn 2y ago
        In Texas we’d say things like “I’m fixing to go over yonder.” Meaning “I’m about to go over there.”
        mock-possum 2y ago
        No, it’s “fix” in the sense of “fix in place” - to pin something to one spot. “I can’t move the table, it’s fixed in place.” Her gaze is fixed upon - her gaze is fixing. Within her field of view, her deliberate staring at the shrine has fixed it in place. Her eyes are fixed in place, focused on the shrine. ‘In place’ is implied by the context.
      - Someone 2y ago
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix: to direct one's attention or efforts : FOCUS also : DECIDE, SETTLE —usually used with on had fixed on the first Saturday in June All eyes fixed on her as she entered the room.
    - Galatians4_16 2y ago
      Depends on the correct spelling of gaze.
    - bmacho 2y ago
      What it means. The most annoying about that quote is that it is a correct sentence, with one single trivial meaning. Easy right? Your favorite type of sentence. Well guess what, in the text it stands for a totally different thing (without any particular reason or benefit). I much prefer GP's broken sentence. It is syntactically broken, but it has all the words, much better than if it was syntactically correct with an entirely different meaning than the intended one.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    Exactly, and "fixing" in this sense means "nailing to the spot", or "fastening upon, halt, stop moving, be immobile like a fixed point or fixed price". It's a poetic expression.
- bmacho 2y ago
  > For example, it says: "A woman in her forties sits on a bench, fixing the shrine with her gaze." This particular example I don't think is poetic rather it is broken.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > I don't think is poetic rather it is broken. No, it is not. You are merely unfamiliar with this sentence construction. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-gaze-on https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-g... https://dictionary.cambridge.org/thesaurus/fix-one-s-gaze https://dictionary.cambridge.org/thesaurus/fix-one-s-gaze https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fix+his+with+a+gaze https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fix+his+with+a+gaze
    - bmacho 2y ago
      Collins and Cambridge don't know about it (despite Cambridge having one of the best and largest corpus of spoken and written English). Thefreedictionary I don't accept as reliable. Seems like this proves my point tbh.
      - smcin 2y ago
        GP post cites Collins defining "fix a gaze on"! https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-gaze-on https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fix-a-g... Yes Collins knows about it. Even this lesser-known site knows about it: https://texttospeech.io/thesaurus/gaze https://texttospeech.io/thesaurus/gaze > Definition of gaze: (n): a long fixed look; "he fixed his paternal gaze on me"
        bmacho 2y ago
        We are talking about 'fixing smth with a gaze' and not 'fixing gaze on smth'. The verb, the object and the subject are different.
        2y ago
xyzsparetimexyz 2y ago
That's a broken sentence.
- dambi0 2y ago
  Broken seems a bit harsh. It might not be idiomatic, it might fall foul of some grammatical standard. But you know what it means.
  - xyzsparetimexyz 2y ago
    No, I do not! It is absolutely derived of context.
    - nindalf 2y ago
      Kinda like how I understood what you meant here ("absolutely devoid of context") in spite of your error ("derived of context"). Sometimes we need to make an effort to understand. I wouldn't make you feel bad by saying "that's a broken sentence! I can't understand it!"
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
DeathArrow 2y ago
It is not an informative article, it's a piece designed to convey emotions and sentiments so readers are more willing to embrace author's view.
- nottorp 2y ago
  There seems to be an agenda there. If you check wikipedia at least, the muslim-christian population exchange between Greece and Turkey wasn't quite like the article describes it. The facts may be somewhere in the middle, but certainly not in this article.
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    FWIW The Critic is associated with the British conservative movement so there is definitely a leaning to the political right (This is a comment on the magazine that published TFA, not TFA itself)
  - Texasian 2y ago
    You say that as if it’s a bad thing. Not all writing needs to be as dry as a technical bulletin.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - nottorp 2y ago
      That’s how you do a proper propaganda piece, you write an emotional article that is mostly correct and insert subtle nudges to your actual topic :)
  - nindalf 2y ago
    Could you describe how the muslim-christian population exchange actually happened? What is the agenda of this piece?
    - nottorp 2y ago
Galatians4_16 2y ago
Be glad it's not Pidgin.
type0 2y ago
Here you go: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki

jhbadger 2y ago

While I haven't been there, I know of it from Alan Furst's novels (which I recommend) -- he writes novels set before and during WWII and likes to often set them in places like Thessaloniki/Salonika in Greece and Trieste in Italy -- places which were on the border between two (or more) cultures and which lost a lot of their multicultural status due to the war.

TMWNN 2y ago
>places like Thessaloniki/Salonika in Greece and Trieste in Italy -- places which were on the border between two (or more) cultures and which lost a lot of their multicultural status due to the war "European borders aren't drawn along ethnic lines, the ethnic lines are drawn along the borders." —/u/sora_mui, two days ago <https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1j86d8i/the_balkanization_plan_of_the_free_nations_of/mh43dm6/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1j86d8i/the_balkani...>

mikhailfranco 2y ago

It is contemporarily relevant to look at the euphemistic 'exchange of populations' during and after the Greco-Turkish War. Today it would be called 'ethnic cleansing'. In Anatolia itself, it took the form of genocide. The Turks had recently executed the Armenian and Assyrian (Sayfo) genocides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Gr... Most vividly, it was covered by journalist Ernest Hemingway for the Toronto Star: A Silent, Ghastly Procession Wends Its Way from Thrace (20 Oct 1922) Refugee Procession is Scene of Horror (14 Nov 1922) But he also put his experiences into fiction, especially "On The Quai At Smyrna", describing the tragic murderous evacuation of Greeks from (what is now) Izmir, Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Quai_at_Smyrna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Quai_at_Smyrna Some telling quotes here: https://www.neomagazine.com/2022/04/on-the-quay-at-smyrna-ernest-hemingway-and-1922/ https://www.neomagazine.com/2022/04/on-the-quay-at-smyrna-er... You can find these works in many collections of his journalism and short stories (e.g. "Byline"). I am very glad his early work is now coming out of copyright (and the journalism in Canada too? - if someone has links to his original articles, please post them). Here is an out-of-copyright paragraph of "In Our Time", which recollects the refugee columns passing through Thrace, to and from Salonika, in 1922: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61085/pg61085-images.html#CH3 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/61085/pg61085-images.ht... There are similar scenes in our world today. Not being played out today, but really happening.