8 ms·

Android phone will run Debian Linux soon (like some Pixels can)

55 points by amrrs 2y ago

ggm 2y ago
It has enforced isolation so a bunch of things termux kinda does do, won't work to do with file sharing. Not that termux (non rooted) is perfect: Termux can't even make symlinks into externally removable SD cards, if they are formatted for app use and not used for simple file transfer. What it does termux doesn't do so well, is get to the screen. With termux you seem to wind up needing to vnc to an X server on yourself which is clunky.
- nickspacek 2y ago
  You can use Termux:X11 now which is an X server you can target from your Termux shell. I've used it with Andronix distros and plain XFCE inside Termux and it works, ish. I occasionally experience crashes and it gets memory-killed on my phone.
teddyh 2y ago
The Nokia N900 has/had a Debian chroot app. (Of course, some phones, like the Librem 5, runs a Debian derivative as their native OS.)
- mcsniff 2y ago
  Maemo is/was based on Debian, with full compatibility with dpkg and apt.
andrewmcwatters 2y ago
It's always mind-boggling to me that software engineers find ways to screw things up, and then hype up effectively bringing back features that would have existed if they had done nothing at all.
- xmhsez 2y ago
  I'm not familiar with the history here. What happened?
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Nonsense - Android's userland does not use GNU, at all; or Linux display servers; or the POSIX standard; or anything but the kernel. Apps on Android have no access, or ability, to directly call kernel functions. Android is deliberately designed so the kernel could, hypothetically, even be replaced one day without breaking anything. Forcing apps into an abstraction layer from the kernel is good design, preventing kernel quirks from being permanent features. Not using GNU is another design choice which can be debated, but it's completely valid, there's no requirement (moral or otherwise) to use the GNU userland with the Linux kernel. Most embedded devices also eschew the GNU userland by instead using Busybox.
  - Vogtinator 2y ago
    > Apps on Android have no access, or ability, to directly call kernel functions. That is nonsense.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Technically, it's true, as far as I am aware. Android has low level functions which themselves then directly call Linux, but you are not allowed to make a direct Linux call. I could easily be completely wrong though.
      - fluoridation 2y ago
        What do you imagine happens when you call fopen()? At some point there's a transition from user mode into kernel mode. What can the system do to prevent normal "app" code from making the transition but not "low level" code, when it's all user mode stuff running in the same process?
        2y ago
andrewaylett 2y ago
I'm disappointed that this seems to need developer mode, given I have apps that refuse to work if I've got developer mode enabled.
- xandrius 2y ago
  Really? Banking? I know apps looking for root but never for developer mode (didn't even know you could know its state).
  - andrewmcwatters 2y ago
    Even simpler than that. I know Goldman Sachs will refuse to connect to their servers if you're using a proxy of any kind so that you can't easily inspect network traffic.
  - runjake 2y ago
    I can confirm. I have run into a number of money/banking/healthcare apps that refuse to run (or in some cases, run but not sign in) if the device is rooted or in developer mode.
  - franga2000 2y ago
    At least one banking app I know will crash if it detects something as normal as a remote desktop app like TeamViewer installed. Banks are insane!
  - andrewaylett 2y ago
    Specifically SumUp, in order to use their app to accept contactless payments on-device instead of with an external reader. Of all the things one might want to do with one's device, this is probably the most reasonable to gate behind integrity checks. But I don't have to like it :P.
- NotPractical 2y ago
  You might be able to turn off developer mode once it's enabled, maybe? Anyway, apps have literally no reason to query the status of developer mode and should not be allowed to do so. I don't think apps should be able to query the status of the OS' "integrity" either (which in practice just boils down to a "Google-approved" boolean anyway), but they do at least have somewhat legitimate reasons for wanting to do that -- Pokemon Go wants to make sure the GPS coordinates it receives aren't spoofed, for example. But there is no reason they should be able to query the status of developer mode.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
I didn't know they were doing virtualized hardware sufficient to run a Wayland. That could be very very very simple/bad performance, who knows. But it's something! I really thought this was going to be a terminal only release. I wonder how much of this work was already existing vs how much was diy. Did they use existing virt-* work? Did they bring in ChromeOS's many many virtualized device sandbox daemons? Linked from the article: https://www.androidauthority.com/android-16-linux-terminal-doom-3521804/ https://www.androidauthority.com/android-16-linux-terminal-d...
- nolist_policy 2y ago
  Yes, it uses crosvm from ChromeOS.
laweijfmvo 2y ago
> "Google wants to turn Android into a proper desktop operating system" Years ago (2020 I believe) I received a new laptop and Samsung S20-something for my new job. The laptop was DoA and I was unable to complete any of the internal training courses assigned to me (which required certs and such to access). I remembered DeX and on a whim, plugged the Samsung phone into my hub with Monitor, Keyboard, and mouse. Set Chrome to desktop mode and "worked" entirely on my phone until they replaced the laptop. It worked shockingly well, even back then. I don't think those types of "desktop mode" features ever took off, myself included, but I really wonder why. If Apple let you run macOS from a tethered iPhone, it just might!
- winrid 2y ago
  The S20 Ultra is pretty powerful.
  - GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
    Some comparison websites do not list DeX for the cheaper S20FE -- AFAIK all S models since then offer it? Discovered it by chance when trying my Thinkpad's Thunderbolt Dock as a power supply. That was a ridiculously good moment when I had my full setup (mouse, erg. keyboard, 34" screen) available for my phone.
- skyyler 2y ago
  >I don't think those types of "desktop mode" features ever took off, myself included, but I really wonder why. The Motorola Atrix had this "webtop" thing that was pushed before this sort of tech was ready and it was kinda, well, bad. Slow, glitchy, and hot. Battery life wasn't great either. It had a really fierce ad campaign though, so I personally know a few people that bought one. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
- NotPractical 2y ago
  > If Apple let you run macOS from a tethered iPhone, it just might! Maybe that's why? It seems that people just aren't currently capable of fathoming the concept of "one device for everything". If Apple did it though, people might realize it's a good idea. Then again, I think it's unlikely that they will, because they do want to sell you a Mac as well as an iPhone/iPad.
synergy20 2y ago
it would be really cool if I can hook a portable 15" LCD to my pixel 8, run a debian and use some bluetooth keyboard/mouse to do serious work without carrying a laptop. the LCD though has to be externally powered otherwise the phone battery will run dry quickly.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  I tested three bigger displays, and settled on this 18" InnoView, nice brightness boost vs most I've tested. It can pass-through power the phone or laptop (up to 65W I think) if you give it usb-pd power. (No affiliation.) I live in neovim anyways, so there wasn't any big adaption for me. Lenovo ThinkPad TrackPoint 2 keyboard ftw (Bluetooth). https://www.amazon.com/InnoView-Portable-2560x1600-FreeSync-Frameless/dp/B0CCHRXW9L/ https://www.amazon.com/InnoView-Portable-2560x1600-FreeSync-...
  - synergy20 2y ago
    Thanks for the info. I have a ViewSonic VA1655 15.6 Inch 1080p which can powered by the pixel 8 directly via one usb-c cable(though I'm sure the battery will run out fast). Looking for bluetooth(not 2.4G wireless that needs a receiver, my phone has no extra usb for that). will checkout the thinkpad keyboard.
- xnx 2y ago
  Can't you already do something very close to this with termux?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago
Is this AOSP stuff, or is this only in the Google's proprietary parts?
- aesh2Xa1 2y ago
  https://developer.android.com/about/versions/15/release-notes#linux-development-environment https://developer.android.com/about/versions/15/release-note... The feature is part of AOSP.
NotPractical 2y ago
FWIW GrapheneOS is rolling it out as well: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114132940314692519 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114132940314692519 Looks like the GrapheneOS implementation will be less restricted and will let you run operating systems other than Debian, including Windows 11.
johnea 2y ago
The articles language is pretty confusing in the way that the author continues to say "the phone can run linux", even after saying that "of course, android is linux". If the only shortcoming of android, compared to a more typical linux distribution, was that it didn't have a shell interface, that can be solved with the variety of shell programs available for the android environment. However bigger issues remain unsolved by adding a shell. The configuration of the _actual_ linux kernel used in android being one of the most significant. For instance, typical linux has excellent support for all USB class devices, whereas android disables this functionality. USB-on-the-go only supports specific devices in most android distributions. Rather than running a linux user space in an android chroot environment, as has been possible to do for years with many embedded linux flavors: archlinuxarm, debian, gentoo, ubuntu, all have documented means of installing a more full featured user space in a chroot over android. The better/more desirable configuration is to run the more full featured linux kernel and user space directly on the phone h/w, and then run android in a chroot or virtual machine when access to an android only app is needed. Such as this phone: https://furilabs.com/ https://furilabs.com/ This allows the android subsystem to be completely shut down when not in use, thus disabling the goggle surveillance and other undesirable features of android. For any semi-technical phone user, this article is old news. The only thing new about it, is that the chroot is configured by goggle itself, which pretty much insures that the config will be primarily for the benefit of goggle, not the user.
Wowfunhappy 2y ago
> Of course, Android is Linux. > The Linux Terminal runs on top of a [...] virtual machine. It should, uh, at least be noted that "Android is Linux" doesn't really matter if you're just going to use a Virtual Machine anyway. Android could be based on BeOS and you could still have a Linux virtual machine. You could have a Windows virtual machine, for that matter. I wonder if Microsoft would be interested... I would be interested in what it would take to get a non-virtualized Linux terminal on Android. Android is just a Linux distro at the end of the day, right? Could you chroot into a Debian environment?
- johnea 2y ago
  https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid Many other distros also support this... https://github.com/selirra/anarch https://github.com/selirra/anarch https://hamelot.io/android/run-gentoo-on-android-via-chroot/ https://hamelot.io/android/run-gentoo-on-android-via-chroot/
  - Wowfunhappy 2y ago
    Oh. And there are even apps in the Play Store that do it. What is even the point of Google doing this, with a VM no less?
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      The VM is probably for security. Oddly it might also actually improve performance, but that depends on the details (hardware-supported virtualization is fast, and using ptrace to fake a chroot has a perf hit; I don't know that it's faster, but it wouldn't surprise me).
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > It should, uh, at least be noted that "Android is Linux" doesn't really matter if you're just going to use a Virtual Machine anyway. Android could be based on BeOS and you could still have a Linux virtual machine. For a worked example, this is also how WSL2 works. > You could have a Windows virtual machine, for that matter. I wonder if Microsoft would be interested... It would be interesting to get official buy-in, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43336934 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43336934 links to GrapheneOS planning to make it work. > I would be interested in what it would take to get a non-virtualized Linux terminal on Android. Android is just a Linux distro at the end of the day, right? Could you chroot into a Debian environment? Yes, you can do a chroot if your Android device is rooted. You can also use Termux, which doesn't need root and essentially is its own Debian-like distro, and which further can has the proot-distro tool to automate installation of assorted Linux distros in what is basically a chroot without needing root (proot is an unprivileged tool that can do all kinds of interesting things, including what amounts to chroot and mount --bind).
xtiansimon 2y ago
Memories of Maemo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo?wprov=sfti1

55 points by amrrs 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

It has enforced isolation so a bunch of things termux kinda does do, won't work to do with file sharing. Not that termux (non rooted) is perfect: Termux can't even make symlinks into externally removable SD cards, if they are formatted for app use and not used for simple file transfer. What it does termux doesn't do so well, is get to the screen. With termux you seem to wind up needing to vnc to an X server on yourself which is clunky.

nickspacek 2y ago
You can use Termux:X11 now which is an X server you can target from your Termux shell. I've used it with Andronix distros and plain XFCE inside Termux and it works, ish. I occasionally experience crashes and it gets memory-killed on my phone.

teddyh 2y ago

The Nokia N900 has/had a Debian chroot app. (Of course, some phones, like the Librem 5, runs a Debian derivative as their native OS.)

mcsniff 2y ago
Maemo is/was based on Debian, with full compatibility with dpkg and apt.

andrewmcwatters 2y ago

It's always mind-boggling to me that software engineers find ways to screw things up, and then hype up effectively bringing back features that would have existed if they had done nothing at all.

xmhsez 2y ago
I'm not familiar with the history here. What happened?
gjsman-1000 2y ago
Nonsense - Android's userland does not use GNU, at all; or Linux display servers; or the POSIX standard; or anything but the kernel. Apps on Android have no access, or ability, to directly call kernel functions. Android is deliberately designed so the kernel could, hypothetically, even be replaced one day without breaking anything. Forcing apps into an abstraction layer from the kernel is good design, preventing kernel quirks from being permanent features. Not using GNU is another design choice which can be debated, but it's completely valid, there's no requirement (moral or otherwise) to use the GNU userland with the Linux kernel. Most embedded devices also eschew the GNU userland by instead using Busybox.
- Vogtinator 2y ago
  > Apps on Android have no access, or ability, to directly call kernel functions. That is nonsense.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Technically, it's true, as far as I am aware. Android has low level functions which themselves then directly call Linux, but you are not allowed to make a direct Linux call. I could easily be completely wrong though.
    - fluoridation 2y ago
      What do you imagine happens when you call fopen()? At some point there's a transition from user mode into kernel mode. What can the system do to prevent normal "app" code from making the transition but not "low level" code, when it's all user mode stuff running in the same process?
      - 2y ago

andrewaylett 2y ago

I'm disappointed that this seems to need developer mode, given I have apps that refuse to work if I've got developer mode enabled.

xandrius 2y ago
Really? Banking? I know apps looking for root but never for developer mode (didn't even know you could know its state).
- andrewmcwatters 2y ago
  Even simpler than that. I know Goldman Sachs will refuse to connect to their servers if you're using a proxy of any kind so that you can't easily inspect network traffic.
- runjake 2y ago
  I can confirm. I have run into a number of money/banking/healthcare apps that refuse to run (or in some cases, run but not sign in) if the device is rooted or in developer mode.
- franga2000 2y ago
  At least one banking app I know will crash if it detects something as normal as a remote desktop app like TeamViewer installed. Banks are insane!
- andrewaylett 2y ago
  Specifically SumUp, in order to use their app to accept contactless payments on-device instead of with an external reader. Of all the things one might want to do with one's device, this is probably the most reasonable to gate behind integrity checks. But I don't have to like it :P.
NotPractical 2y ago
You might be able to turn off developer mode once it's enabled, maybe? Anyway, apps have literally no reason to query the status of developer mode and should not be allowed to do so. I don't think apps should be able to query the status of the OS' "integrity" either (which in practice just boils down to a "Google-approved" boolean anyway), but they do at least have somewhat legitimate reasons for wanting to do that -- Pokemon Go wants to make sure the GPS coordinates it receives aren't spoofed, for example. But there is no reason they should be able to query the status of developer mode.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

I didn't know they were doing virtualized hardware sufficient to run a Wayland. That could be very very very simple/bad performance, who knows. But it's something! I really thought this was going to be a terminal only release. I wonder how much of this work was already existing vs how much was diy. Did they use existing virt-* work? Did they bring in ChromeOS's many many virtualized device sandbox daemons? Linked from the article: https://www.androidauthority.com/android-16-linux-terminal-doom-3521804/ https://www.androidauthority.com/android-16-linux-terminal-d...

nolist_policy 2y ago
Yes, it uses crosvm from ChromeOS.

laweijfmvo 2y ago

> "Google wants to turn Android into a proper desktop operating system" Years ago (2020 I believe) I received a new laptop and Samsung S20-something for my new job. The laptop was DoA and I was unable to complete any of the internal training courses assigned to me (which required certs and such to access). I remembered DeX and on a whim, plugged the Samsung phone into my hub with Monitor, Keyboard, and mouse. Set Chrome to desktop mode and "worked" entirely on my phone until they replaced the laptop. It worked shockingly well, even back then. I don't think those types of "desktop mode" features ever took off, myself included, but I really wonder why. If Apple let you run macOS from a tethered iPhone, it just might!

winrid 2y ago
The S20 Ultra is pretty powerful.
- GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
  Some comparison websites do not list DeX for the cheaper S20FE -- AFAIK all S models since then offer it? Discovered it by chance when trying my Thinkpad's Thunderbolt Dock as a power supply. That was a ridiculously good moment when I had my full setup (mouse, erg. keyboard, 34" screen) available for my phone.
skyyler 2y ago
>I don't think those types of "desktop mode" features ever took off, myself included, but I really wonder why. The Motorola Atrix had this "webtop" thing that was pushed before this sort of tech was ready and it was kinda, well, bad. Slow, glitchy, and hot. Battery life wasn't great either. It had a really fierce ad campaign though, so I personally know a few people that bought one. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
NotPractical 2y ago
> If Apple let you run macOS from a tethered iPhone, it just might! Maybe that's why? It seems that people just aren't currently capable of fathoming the concept of "one device for everything". If Apple did it though, people might realize it's a good idea. Then again, I think it's unlikely that they will, because they do want to sell you a Mac as well as an iPhone/iPad.

synergy20 2y ago

it would be really cool if I can hook a portable 15" LCD to my pixel 8, run a debian and use some bluetooth keyboard/mouse to do serious work without carrying a laptop. the LCD though has to be externally powered otherwise the phone battery will run dry quickly.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
I tested three bigger displays, and settled on this 18" InnoView, nice brightness boost vs most I've tested. It can pass-through power the phone or laptop (up to 65W I think) if you give it usb-pd power. (No affiliation.) I live in neovim anyways, so there wasn't any big adaption for me. Lenovo ThinkPad TrackPoint 2 keyboard ftw (Bluetooth). https://www.amazon.com/InnoView-Portable-2560x1600-FreeSync-Frameless/dp/B0CCHRXW9L/ https://www.amazon.com/InnoView-Portable-2560x1600-FreeSync-...
- synergy20 2y ago
  Thanks for the info. I have a ViewSonic VA1655 15.6 Inch 1080p which can powered by the pixel 8 directly via one usb-c cable(though I'm sure the battery will run out fast). Looking for bluetooth(not 2.4G wireless that needs a receiver, my phone has no extra usb for that). will checkout the thinkpad keyboard.
xnx 2y ago
Can't you already do something very close to this with termux?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

AAAAaccountAAAA 2y ago

Is this AOSP stuff, or is this only in the Google's proprietary parts?

aesh2Xa1 2y ago
https://developer.android.com/about/versions/15/release-notes#linux-development-environment https://developer.android.com/about/versions/15/release-note... The feature is part of AOSP.

NotPractical 2y ago

FWIW GrapheneOS is rolling it out as well: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114132940314692519 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114132940314692519 Looks like the GrapheneOS implementation will be less restricted and will let you run operating systems other than Debian, including Windows 11.

johnea 2y ago

The articles language is pretty confusing in the way that the author continues to say "the phone can run linux", even after saying that "of course, android is linux". If the only shortcoming of android, compared to a more typical linux distribution, was that it didn't have a shell interface, that can be solved with the variety of shell programs available for the android environment. However bigger issues remain unsolved by adding a shell. The configuration of the _actual_ linux kernel used in android being one of the most significant. For instance, typical linux has excellent support for all USB class devices, whereas android disables this functionality. USB-on-the-go only supports specific devices in most android distributions. Rather than running a linux user space in an android chroot environment, as has been possible to do for years with many embedded linux flavors: archlinuxarm, debian, gentoo, ubuntu, all have documented means of installing a more full featured user space in a chroot over android. The better/more desirable configuration is to run the more full featured linux kernel and user space directly on the phone h/w, and then run android in a chroot or virtual machine when access to an android only app is needed. Such as this phone: https://furilabs.com/ https://furilabs.com/ This allows the android subsystem to be completely shut down when not in use, thus disabling the goggle surveillance and other undesirable features of android. For any semi-technical phone user, this article is old news. The only thing new about it, is that the chroot is configured by goggle itself, which pretty much insures that the config will be primarily for the benefit of goggle, not the user.

Wowfunhappy 2y ago

> Of course, Android is Linux. > The Linux Terminal runs on top of a [...] virtual machine. It should, uh, at least be noted that "Android is Linux" doesn't really matter if you're just going to use a Virtual Machine anyway. Android could be based on BeOS and you could still have a Linux virtual machine. You could have a Windows virtual machine, for that matter. I wonder if Microsoft would be interested... I would be interested in what it would take to get a non-virtualized Linux terminal on Android. Android is just a Linux distro at the end of the day, right? Could you chroot into a Debian environment?

johnea 2y ago
https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid Many other distros also support this... https://github.com/selirra/anarch https://github.com/selirra/anarch https://hamelot.io/android/run-gentoo-on-android-via-chroot/ https://hamelot.io/android/run-gentoo-on-android-via-chroot/
- Wowfunhappy 2y ago
  Oh. And there are even apps in the Play Store that do it. What is even the point of Google doing this, with a VM no less?
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    The VM is probably for security. Oddly it might also actually improve performance, but that depends on the details (hardware-supported virtualization is fast, and using ptrace to fake a chroot has a perf hit; I don't know that it's faster, but it wouldn't surprise me).
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> It should, uh, at least be noted that "Android is Linux" doesn't really matter if you're just going to use a Virtual Machine anyway. Android could be based on BeOS and you could still have a Linux virtual machine. For a worked example, this is also how WSL2 works. > You could have a Windows virtual machine, for that matter. I wonder if Microsoft would be interested... It would be interesting to get official buy-in, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43336934 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43336934 links to GrapheneOS planning to make it work. > I would be interested in what it would take to get a non-virtualized Linux terminal on Android. Android is just a Linux distro at the end of the day, right? Could you chroot into a Debian environment? Yes, you can do a chroot if your Android device is rooted. You can also use Termux, which doesn't need root and essentially is its own Debian-like distro, and which further can has the proot-distro tool to automate installation of assorted Linux distros in what is basically a chroot without needing root (proot is an unprivileged tool that can do all kinds of interesting things, including what amounts to chroot and mount --bind).

xtiansimon 2y ago

Memories of Maemo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo?wprov=sfti1