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If you hold a green card and support an organization which has been deemed a terrorist organization by the US government, you are taking a giant risk and are qu
by danielmarkbruce 2y ago
If you hold a green card and support an organization which has been deemed a terrorist organization by the US government, you are taking a giant risk and are quite likely to be deported (legally). Section 237 of INA explicitly calls it out.
Most green card holders will tell you they feel like a guest in the country. Getting involved in protests and supporting organizations on the terror list etc seems rather silly...
- archagon 2y agoDid Mahmoud Khalil actually speak out in support of Hamas?
- danielmarkbruce 2y agoNo idea.
- latentcall 2y agoPro-Palestinian is the same thing as pro-Hamas according to AIPAC and the administration. So according to them, yes. According to logical peoples, no,
- invalidname 2y ago[flagged]
- archagon 2y agoNo, I recall the protests erupting shortly after Israel started annihilating Gaza and chasing the refugee population around the country.
- invalidname 2y ago[flagged]
- archagon 2y agoLooks like the article is describing a poorly-considered letter, not protests. And in any case, it seems irrelevant to the protests Mahmoud Khalil was part of. I take offense at the idea that an anti-war and/or anti-genocide protest would necessarily¹ be "100% pro Hamas," since you could make the same argument about any similar protest with a drastic imbalance of power: pro-Ukraine, anti-Vietnam-War, etc. What I'm hearing is "stop struggling, you'll only make it worse" as dozens of Palestinian civilians are blown up for each murdered Israeli. The only way not to care is if you've dehumanized these people completely. Wherever you get your notions from, they are certainly not coming from "logical people." ¹ (Which is not to discount that there were some anti-semitic and pro-Hamas protesters as well. My sense is that they were far from the majority.)
- invalidname 2y ago[flagged]
- anigbrowl 2y agoany similar protest with a drastic imbalance of power: pro-Ukraine Elon Musk today called a US Senator (Mark Kelly) a traitor for traveling to Kiev and expressing support for the government there.
- fzil 2y agofor your sanity stop replying to invalidname, that dude is in every single Israel / Palestine post, with non-stop commenting. I think he's (she's?) paid to astro-turf here. Just look at their history, and then look at mine for a convo that I have had with them in the past.
- spwa4 2y agoYes. And he was an organizer and negotiator at the student protests where people got attacked. https://www.columbiaspectator.com/city-news/2024/04/24/i-am-the-jewish-future-detained-jewish-columbia-students-hold-press-conference-outside-presidents-house/ https://www.columbiaspectator.com/city-news/2024/04/24/i-am-... https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/30/24145737/columbia-suspends-palestinian-student-who-is-on-a-student-visa https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/30/24145737/columbia-suspend... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68923528 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68923528 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-stalemate-continues-student-protesters-still-camped-lawn-rcna149573 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-stalemate-cont... https://nypost.com/2024/04/26/us-news/the-extremist-student-leaders-leading-columbias-anti-israel-camp/ https://nypost.com/2024/04/26/us-news/the-extremist-student-... And if you want to have a fight about technicalities, you're both wrong. He didn't describe himself as either pro-Hamas or pro-Palestinian. He described the protests as anti-Israel ... As anti-Israel's existence, to be exact, not anti-Israel's actions in Gaza or anywhere else.
- mmmmmbop 2y ago> Yes. None of the links you provided substantiate the claim that Khalil spoke out in support of Hamas. Neither that he was an organizer of the protests.
- spwa4 2y agoThat's what the last paragraph is about. You're technically right. He spoke out against Israel's right to exist. That's functionally the same, or even worse, but not exactly identical to what you mention. You pick.
- mmmmmbop 2y agoIn the five links you provided, there is nothing supporting that he spoke out against Israel's right to exist or that he described the protests as anti-Israel. Can you provide anything that supports your statements?
- deleted 2y ago
- mcphage 2y ago> quite likely to be deported (legally) And is that what happened?
- danielmarkbruce 2y agoDon't know.
- mcphage 2y agoSo then what is the relevance of that to this situation?
- danielmarkbruce 2y agoThere are two components to any case - what is the law, and what are the facts. Lots of people were questioning whether this is legal.
- anigbrowl 2y agobut you say yourself you don't know what the facts are. Deriding the guy as 'rather silly' is basically accepting the claims by ICE at face value and judging him accordingly. It seems like it would be smarter to gather or wait for facts before drawing a conclusion.
- spwa4 2y agoBut the law is structured so that the only thing ICE has to do is claim. They can remove visa from anyone without any reason, at their discretion. They also have the power to remove anyone without a green card from US soil, also at their discretion. The only thing that matters is that this person is in the US on a visa, and that ICE wants to do this. That's the law.
- acdha 2y agoIf it’s true that they can most deport anyone at their discretion, why does the actual have a long list of specific reasons, most of which are felonies or other crimes which would normally carry long jail sentences? https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227
- esalman 2y agoYou can argue that you take a giant risk being born Palestinian and coming to US.
- Aeolun 2y agoNot as much as you take being born Palestinian and staying there.
- etiam 2y agoThat remains to be seen.
- spwa4 2y ago(he also organized and financed protests where people got attacked and hurt, including Jewish students, who got attacked and hurt - for being Jewish)
- esalman 2y agoIIRC a Jewish billionaire funded a van which drove around campuses doxxing students who had little or nothing to do with the protests. He also sent lists of those students to potential employers.
- acdha 2y agoDo you have a citation for anything linking him to actual violence? Permanent residents are protected by U.S. laws, including the 1st amendment, so simply protesting shouldn’t be enough unless they can show a serious crime.
- spwa4 2y agoYes (the link is that he gave interviews at the encampments where that happened), but it doesn't even matter what he actually did. If you really want to, yes, you can find videos of him defending the violence. It's not hard to find on Youtube. I don't think I could find video where he, personally, commits violence. But it doesn't matter. Visas can be granted or withdrawn at the president's discretion. You're absolutely right that visa holders are protected by US laws ... but that doesn't protect them from losing said visa. Deportation is also at the president's discretion. So the same applies. But they are definitely protected by US laws. You cannot kill a them. You will get arrested for stealing from them. Even if they're being deported. But the executive ("the president"), ie. ICE, can forcibly remove any visa holder, from US soil, that is perfectly within the law.
- theahura 2y agoThis is relevant if they can show that he was deemed to be supporting a terrorist organization, which of course would require him to show up in court and would require the government to defend their decision. They have done neither, and have instead moved him over 1000 miles from his lawyers without telling them
- spwa4 2y ago[flagged]
- theahura 2y agoTwo things: - massive citation needed on the 'this person organized protests where people got hurt'. Here is a pro-israel group that explicitly tracks antisemitic behavior, and all they have on the guy is that they don't like his speech: https://canarymission.org/individual/Mahmoud_Khalil https://canarymission.org/individual/Mahmoud_Khalil - greencard holders have very strong legal protections, including (of course) first amendment protections (see: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-we-grant-your-green-card/rights-and-responsibilities-of-a-green-card-holder-permanent-resident https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-we-grant-your-green-c... -- "Be protected by all laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions"). Those first amendment protections would mean nothing if USGov could just deport anyone whose speech they do not like without trial. On the latter, though, it is murky -- Volokh has more details, including a lot of citation of legal precedent that goes both ways: https://reason.com/volokh/2025/02/03/may-aliens-be-deported-based-on-their-speech/ https://reason.com/volokh/2025/02/03/may-aliens-be-deported-... The problem, of course, is the 'detained/deported without trial' bit. You can claim whatever you want about what is or isn't true, but we can't ever adjudicate the question if it doesn't go to a court, which this admin seems to be trying to avoid. Specifically, if it turns out that he did NOT ever indicate support for any terrorist organizations (as determined by the courts), he would be free and clear even under your (imo ridiculous) standards, and this whole thing is a straightforward case of an authoritarian government compelling speech. Something that I'd hope the HN crowd is particularly sensitive to.
- 2y ago
- ok123456 2y agoIt was wrong when we deported Rosa Luxemburg for perfectly legal speech; this is wrong now.
- torstenvl 2y agoNot only not-wrong, but morally necessary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemi...